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kittyyorp
Vortininja
Posts: 64
(11/24/02 7:33 pm)
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wat do u believe?

I believe in creation.

Results (total votes = 34):


God created everything	21 / 61.8%

Big Bang theory	4 / 11.8%

We used to be snowmen, but a fairy turned us into homosapiens	3 / 8.8%

Evolution	4 / 11.8%

What is a homosapien?	2 / 5.9%

commanderklown
Vortininja
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(11/24/02 8:43 pm)
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creation

i beleive in creation

chogall
Vorticon Elder
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(11/24/02 9:46 pm)
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ezSupporter

Re: wat do u believe?

Those options are not mutually exclusive.

kittyyorp
Vortininja
Posts: 70
(11/24/02 9:55 pm)
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Wat?

what does that mean?

Djaser
Vorticon Elite
Posts: 448
(11/25/02 6:39 am)
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Re: Wat?

This poll is almost the same as the 'are you religious one'.

-----Djaser est un nation prétendue neutre mais, dans la réalité, il ne l'est pas car il n'arrête pas d'être envahie par les uns et sauvés par les autres.
Djaser est normalement régie par une féodalité...-----

KeenEmpire
Keen's Empire
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(11/25/02 11:38 am)
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You can believe in more than one at the same time, for example believing in both "God created everything" and "evolution."

KeenRush
Garg
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Quote:
We used to be snowmen, but a fairy turned us into homosapiens

Where do you get that from?

Well, if I wouldn't have joked this time, I would have selected that first one.

Keen the house. -- Keen the house.

Xtraverse
Stranded Fish
Posts: 727
(11/25/02 9:48 pm)
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Re: :D

Quote:
We used to be snowmen, but a fairy turned us into homosapiens

Where do you get that from?

eK suggested it in a different topic.

The poll is kind of weak, because I'd like to select two of those options.

Edited by: Xtraverse at: 11/25/02 10:03:43 pm

kittyyorp
Vortininja
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(11/26/02 10:15 pm)
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re:

u know, i only made this poll cuz alotta posted topics end up talking about this subject. i was wondering how u could believe in 2 things, really...

Xtraverse
Stranded Fish
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(11/26/02 10:38 pm)
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Re: re:

Well, considering the Big Bang and evoution are two entirly different things...

Without "Evolution" and "what is a homosapien" that poll would actually make sense.

kittyyorp
Vortininja
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(11/26/02 11:25 pm)
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Re: re:

what do you mean "it would actually make sense"? a lot of people may believe in evolution, so why would i take it out. however i do now realize that i should have taken out "what is a homosapien?" and either left it blank or put "other"...
...of course i can't change that now, so...

Xtraverse
Stranded Fish
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Re: re:

The other three are views on how the universe was created. Evolution has nothing to do with that.

kittyyorp
Vortininja
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(11/26/02 11:45 pm)
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Re: re:

actually, technically, it does. the question: how did people come to be? creationists: God created them; fairy fanatics?: fairies turned us from snowmen to people; big bang believers: everything pretty much just came to be; evolutionists: we came from monkeys/other creatures.

Xtraverse
Stranded Fish
Posts: 742
(11/27/02 12:18 am)
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Re: re:

Well you really have two questions there:

How did the universe come to be?
1. God created it
2. The Big Bang

How did people come to be?
1. Fairies turned us from snowmen to people
2. Evolution (religious or non-religious)
3. God created humans directly

Edited by: Xtraverse at: 11/27/02 12:19:21 am

Crazy Dude
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(12/10/02 4:39 am)
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Re: re:

I believe in Creation. How could someone say that all this complex matter evolved from a single cell? It is just not possible. Or even a big bang? That's silly.

chogall
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Re: wat do u believe?

This poll is seriously flawed. The Big Bang has absolutely nothing with the creation of life to do (except from creating the substrate for life to evolve). The only thing the Big Bang theory and the theory of evolution have in common is that they are both disputed by creationists.

The result is that people who believe God created the world know what to vote. Among those who don't, many will probably both believe in both "Big Bang theory" and "Evolution", and don't know what to vote. Most non-creationist people will probably just refrain from voting in this badly designed poll (like I did), earning the "God created everything" choice an incorrectly high percentage. This could have been intentional from the creator of the poll, but I think it was only due to ignorance about the other theories.

BTW: The last statement is also true. Last time I checked the dictionary, "homosapien" was not listed.

kittyyorp
Vortininja
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(12/15/02 7:08 pm)
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arrrg!!!!!!

ok, u know wat? i'm tired of people telling me that already! i know it's flawed, but the choice is there any i can't do anything about that now can i?!?!?!?!?!!!!

(

UppyII
Vortininja
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Re: wat do u believe?

Quote:
Most non-creationist people will probably just refrain from voting in this badly designed poll (like I did), earning the "God created everything" choice an incorrectly high percentage.

Yes, you're right...

kittyyorp
Vortininja
Posts: 102
(12/16/02 9:17 pm)
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grr...

ok... i u people can make a better poll... do so if you wish, but stop critisizing this poll already. i know it is flawed :furious

!!! but i really don't feel like making a better 1 right now, even though i could.

Grelphy
Vortininja
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(1/24/03 1:35 am)
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Re: wat do u believe?

I must say that I myself have created a number of awful polls... I've also been known to go to extreme lengths to comfort people, though.

I have to say that my current beleif has nothing to do with much of anything. And I dont feel like... well, whatever. Forget it.

BTW, is there an emotikeen for -> :/
Gess not. Nevermind...

Oops.
-Commander Keen
Episode 2 when
you blow up the
world

Edited by: Grelphy at: 1/24/03 1:35:50 am

Xtraverse
Stranded Fish
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Re: wat do u believe?

This one looks similar: :rolleyes

Crazy Dude
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Re:

Creation, definitely.

therealdopefish
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Re: Re:

Definately evolution one. People who believe everything is created forget that the worls is very old. And the world changes a lot in all these years. And then you believe animals don't change and don't adapt to changes of the world? Millions of years is a long time and it's highly unlikely that no animals change within time. Evolution doesn't mean that one day a monkey changed into humanbeing. :crazy

Xtraverse
Stranded Fish
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Re: Re:

You forget that most Creationists regard Carbon-14 dating to be bogus because it goes against their belief that the world is only about 6000 years old. Their argument is "how could it happen in such a short time." Give me a break..

Grelphy
Vortininja
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Re: Re:

Been a long time since I've seen this...

Anyway, Creationists (in my opinion, this hasn't been proven, heh..

tend to disregard evidence.

There's plenty of it that C-14 (among other radiological) dating is extremely accurate-otherwise it would not be used by scientists (who prise accuracy) to determine, for example, the ages of ancient ruins.

Also, scientists have fast-forwarded evolution in the lab.
One other thing. AIDS has shown a tendency to evolve rapidly to become resistant to drugs.

So there,s a ton of evidence that evolution is the "correct" "theology".

One other question: Why in the universe would God go to all that trouble to fool us?

You and all those other mental wimps deserve to die!
-Mortimer Mcmire in Commander Keen 3

Flaose
Pooper, King of the Slugs
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(2/28/03 2:45 am)
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Re: Re:

I don't see why creation and evolution can be compatible beliefs...

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Grelphy
Vortininja
Posts: 109
(2/28/03 3:46 am)
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Re: Re:

Yeah, maybe not. But like i said:

Why would God go to all that trouble to fool us?

It doesn't really make sense.
(of course, quantum mechanics doesn't make sense, either...)

You and all those other mental wimps deserve to die!
-Mortimer Mcmire in Commander Keen 3

kittyyorp
Vortininja
Posts: 116
(3/8/03 2:00 pm)
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re:

Quote: Definately evolution one. People who believe everything is created forget that the worlds is very old. And the world changes a lot in all these years. And then you believe animals don't change and don't adapt to changes of the world? Millions of years is a long time and it's highly unlikely that no animals change within time.

Millions of years? First of all, didn't you know that 1 second is added to the time every 4 years? that doesn't seem like much, but over "millions and millions" of years, you have to admit that it can add up. in the beginning the day would have had to been about 1 second long. nothing can live without enough sunlight.

Quote: Evolution doesn't mean that one day a monkey changed into humanbeing.

then what does it mean?

Quote: You forget that most Creationists regard Carbon-14 dating to be bogus because it goes against their belief that the world is only about 6000 years old. Their argument is "how could it happen in such a short time." Give me a break..

Actually, about 7000. but still, i have never said "how could it happen in such a short time." i mean, even i think that is a weak defense.

chogall
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Re: re:

Quote:
First of all, didn't you know that 1 second is added to the time every 4 years? that doesn't seem like much, but over "millions and millions" of years, you have to admit that it can add up. in the beginning the day would have had to been about 1 second long. nothing can live without enough sunlight.

Watch out! This doesn't mean that the day gets longer and longer all the time.
The point is that a day is slightly shorter than 24 hours, so our time system runs a little quick compared to the natural change of days. In order to compensate for this, we have leap years every 4 years (except for years that are divisible by 100, but not 400) in which a day is added to "pick up" the discrepancy. However, that isn't quite enough, so an extra second is added once in a while.

This, however, does not mean that days are changing length. It is only an artifact of the system we have chosen for counting time.

baabis
Gannalech
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(3/8/03 7:13 pm)
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Re: re:

If I remember correct, a year is 365 days, 6 hours and 36 minutes long.

The board is a mirror of the mind of the players as the moments pass. When a master studies the record of a game he can tell at what point greed overtook the pupil, when he became tired, when he fell into stupidity, and when the maid came by with tea.

Xtraverse
Stranded Fish
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(3/8/03 11:18 pm)
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Re: re:

I heard somewhere that a day was 23 hours, 59 minutes, and 57 seconds. So what exactly do you mean by days in that baaba?

kittyyorp: Evolution means that Chimps and humans evolved from a common ancestor. And it didn't happen overnight, it's been happening continuously.

LordOfGlobox
Grunt
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(3/11/03 11:40 pm)
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RE:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Watch out! This doesn't mean that the day gets longer and longer all the time.
The point is that a day is slightly shorter than 24 hours, so our time system runs a little quick compared to the natural change of days. In order to compensate for this, we have leap years every 4 years (except for years that are divisible by 100, but not 400) in which a day is added to "pick up" the discrepancy. However, that isn't quite enough, so an extra second is added once in a while.

This, however, does not mean that days are changing length. It is only an artifact of the system we have chosen for counting time.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Actually, it's because the axis is slowing down, so she meant that the the day would be a second or two long.
Thus, Plants couldn't grow, if plant's couldn't grow animals couldn't eat, thus earth would be baren and dead.

baabis
Gannalech
Posts: 162
(3/12/03 3:11 pm)
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Re: RE:

Quote:
I heard somewhere that a day was 23 hours, 59 minutes, and 57 seconds. So what exactly do you mean by days in that baaba?

I mean't a day as the time that the earth takes to spin around once.

therealdopefish
Vorticon Elite
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(3/12/03 6:51 pm)
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Re: re:

Quote:
Quote: Definately evolution one. People who believe everything is created forget that the worlds is very old. And the world changes a lot in all these years. And then you believe animals don't change and don't adapt to changes of the world? Millions of years is a long time and it's highly unlikely that no animals change within time.

Millions of years? First of all, didn't you know that 1 second is added to the time every 4 years? that doesn't seem like much, but over "millions and millions" of years, you have to admit that it can add up. in the beginning the day would have had to been about 1 second long. nothing can live without enough sunlight.

Quote: Evolution doesn't mean that one day a monkey changed into humanbeing.
then what does it mean?

Next time use [ quote ]Then it's easier to see someone replied to it. Your first argument is absolete. What has our way of counting time has to do with millions and millions of years?
And if you do believe the world is 7000 years old, then how can you say that one second in 4 years can add up over millions of years? If the world did exist only 7000 years then it would add up 1750 seconds=almost half hour.
And if you don't know what evolution is then you shouldn't make arguments. Evolution is that because of the world slowly changing and because of the survival of the fittest animals change. And one group of the same species adapts more to a swampy environment, the other group adapt more to a desert environment and in a long time you have two different species.
Like if the world starts to get swampy animals have to adapt to the environment. If they don't they'll extinct. Survival of the fittest. And in millions of years the animals do change. Like we find fossils and they do show evolution as evidence. From the first vertrebrae, to fishes, to longue fishes, froglike creatures, reptiles, and then mammals and birds(reptiles did split in two different kinds). Like right now because of our industries there is a lot of smog, and holes in the ozone layer. Some plants have been found (in the rain forest I thought)which are already adapted to these situations and had a high resistance for smog.
Yuck, I hate it when people are so stupid to keep believing in stupid old thoughts which are all overtaken by new and better thoughts. But I shouldn't "hate" that type of persons because then I wouldn't be better than people who keep their religion and are so childish to fight wars for it. :drool

THE CONES HAVE LANDED!
And a special Windows edition is coming in a few months!

LordOfGlobox
Vortininja
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RE:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You forget that most Creationists regard Carbon-14 dating to be bogus because it goes against their belief that the world is only about 6000 years old. Their argument is "how could it happen in such a short time." Give me a break..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Actually, the reason I regard carbon-14 dating as bogus is not just because of that but because, well here's how we "carbon-14 date":

First we look at the fossil, then to see how old it is we look at the rock around it.
Now, how do we know how old the rock is? Yep, you guessed it, by the fossils around it.

So I can look at one of my dogs buried bones and say "Well this is a good find, by the rocks around it I'd say it's two billion years old"? Acording to evolutionists you can't prove me wrong.

Also, why in the hell hasn't enything evolved in our (apx.) 3000 year old history that we know of?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Your first argument is absolete. What has our way of counting time has to do with millions and millions of years?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No! the earth's rotation is slowly getting slower and slower, and that's why they make it 1sec. for every four years.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Evolution is that because of the world slowly changing and because of the survival of the fittest animals change. And one group of the same species adapts more to a swampy environment, the other group adapt more to a desert environment and in a long time you have two different species.
Like if the world starts to get swampy animals have to adapt to the environment. If they don't they'll extinct. Survival of the fittest.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Things die and get worse, not better. Look around you, the law of matter and energy state that the system (universe) is Deteriorating, not getting better.

Xtraverse
Stranded Fish
Posts: 1589
(3/13/03 12:19 am)
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Re: RE:

Quote:
First we look at the fossil, then to see how old it is we look at the rock around it.
Now, how do we know how old the rock is? Yep, you guessed it, by the fossils around it.

So I can look at one of my dogs buried bones and say "Well this is a good find, by the rocks around it I'd say it's two billion years old"? Acording to evolutionists you can't prove me wrong.

No, that's not Carbon-14 dating. Do you know what carbon-14 is?

Quote:
Also, why in the hell hasn't enything evolved in our (apx.) 3000 year old history that we know of?

Yes, stuff has. Humans have gotten taller, among other things. Evolution doesn't work that fast usually, anyways.

However, viruses evolve very fast. That's how they develop resistance to different drugs we try to stop them with (such as malaria).

Flaose
Pooper, King of the Slugs
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Re: RE:

(as an aside)
LordOfGlobox, please use the quote feature...it will make your posts much more readable.

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Cerebral Cortex 314 - For All of your Commander Keen Needs.

ceilick

Vortininja
Posts: 120
(3/13/03 2:30 am)
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Re: wat do u believe?

I believe in creation, but also that things created by God could have evolved. Also that man was a seperate creation.

UppyII
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Re: RE:

Quote:
However, viruses evolve very fast. That's how they develop resistance to different drugs we try to stop them with (such as malaria).

Wrong. In order for something to evolve, there has to be an increase in information. All the viruses are doing is adapting to their enviroment with information that was already in their DNA. It's called natural selection and no creature has been observed to change into another creature through natural selection.

chogall
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Re: RE:

Quote:
no creature has been observed to change into another creature through natural selection.

That's right. Evolution doesn't happen on individual level, but on population level. You'll never see a member of one species turn into another species. However evolutionary change may cause the genetic "baggage" of a population to change over time. But the individuals themselves don't evolve. It's the composition of the population that does.

Oh, and defining that "evolution := natural selection" as many people here do is a very simplistic point of view.

UppyII
Vortininja
Posts: 244
(3/13/03 7:13 pm)
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Re: RE:

Quote:
That's right. Evolution doesn't happen on individual level, but on population level. You'll never see a member of one species turn into another species. However evolutionary change may cause the genetic "baggage" of a population to change over time. But the individuals themselves don't evolve. It's the composition of the population that does.

Again I ask: Where is the evidence? Surely after so long and so many changes there must be mountains of evidence. In spite of all the debates we've had, I've only been shown one odd bird with claws and teeth (which is, in fact, 100% bird).

Quote:
Oh, and defining that "evolution := natural selection" as many people here do is a very simplistic point of view.

I denfine 'natural selection' as adapting to the enviroment and it has nothing to do with evolution.

LordOfGlobox
Vortininja
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(3/14/03 1:56 pm)
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RE:???

Sorry, Floase but I don't know the quote code

Xtra, sorry I thought that carbon dating was ageing the fossils, my bad I'll read up on carbon dating.

Xtraverse
Stranded Fish
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(3/14/03 1:58 pm)
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Re: RE:???

You seem to call him Floase in every post you make..that can't be just a typo.

therealdopefish
Vorticon Elite
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Re: RE:

That bird with claws and teeth must have been the Archaeopteryx you're talking about. And the creature seems to have a lot of resembles with a dinosaur Compsognathus. Only difference was that Archaeopteryx was built to float and had feathers and that Compsognathus was built to run(but it's not certain if he had feathers or not). They lived in the late Jurassic era. I think this is a good evidence for evolution. Only but is that they still haven't found the link between Archaeopteryx and the next stage of birds which were birds with teeth, but they could fly. Those birds lived in the late Cretacous era. And then there was a creature found who lived in the Triassic era called Protoaves where it's unknown if it was a bird or a reptile, but if this is a bird, it would have been the first living bird.
As a kid I was a Dino-freak, so that's why I know all this.

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Djaser

Holy Monk Yorp
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Re: RE:

Quote:
As a kid I was a Dino-freak, so that's why I know all this.

Much of the things you mentioned are recent theories.

therealdopefish
Vorticon Elite
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(3/15/03 1:01 pm)
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Re: RE:

It's as good as evidence. Wouldn't it be one big coincidence if there are hundreds of fossils of creatures and that also fossils are found from a primitive version of these creatures which lived before them? I don't think so. And not everything is a theory. You can't say that Compsognathus and Archaeopteryx look a lot like each other is a theory.
If you still don't understand evolution. It's not that an animal changes in a different animal, but if an animal get kids these kid look different than their parent. And add million of years to it and they're entirely different than their very old ancestors. And sometimes born kids get deviations. And with enough deviations you get a new species.
Remember that it's humankind who splits all animals in species.

It's so simple, yet almost nobody who is religious believes it because they're so obstinate. But then again live in your dream world with the idea that after you die you get in heaven and get a prosper afterlife. I prefer reality and just see what happens.

RKP series is cursed: people keep comparing it with Isis 2

Edited by: therealdopefish at: 3/15/03 4:31:09 pm

Xtraverse
Stranded Fish
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Re: RE:

therealdopefish, there are plenty of religious people that believe in evolution.

Flaose
Pooper, King of the Slugs
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Re: RE:

therealdopefish, I'm sick of you saying that those who are religious are stupid people who live in a 'dream world'. Was Albert Einstein a stupid person? No! In fact, he was one of the most intellegent people who's ever lived, yet he was a devout Jew...

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Xtraverse
Stranded Fish
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Re: RE:

wtf? I add a reply and it says "This post has recently been deleted"
And Flaose's post disappeared, then reappeared..stupid ezcrap

Anways, I'm sick of it too Pieder, and I'm not religious myself.

Edited by: Xtraverse at: 3/15/03 4:01:04 pm

therealdopefish
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(3/15/03 4:29 pm)
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Re: RE:

Yes, and Einstein also lived in a time when there was no such thing as freedom of religion and where it was not normal if you didn't have the same religion as you parents. And my Maths teacher is also very religious: he always started reading from the Bible in class. :furious

And I thought I wrote 'there are' which means I don't say every religious person is like that. You can't place every person in a group.
I know not many of you respect my opinion as it would be to simplistic, and may be even racial, but I can garantuee that's not the case. I'm just a regular guy like most of you with only one difference: and that is my opinion about religion.
If you think my opinion about religion is to simplistic: It's just the result of years of seeing what religion has for effect on humans, so far from simplistic. And also religion courses and history courses on school has lowered my tolerance for religion even more(while it actually had to do the opposite). I'm not kind of guy who actually follows the group(but I'm not kind of guy who do actually the opposite as well). I do what I find most efficient and revolt everything which is time-consuming and has hardly no effect/result. And religion is in my eyes the king of monkey-do. But any animal is doing what the group does.
Oh wait many religious people say humans are not animals, because they can think and have feelings and intelligence. In that case the Blue Whale isn't an animal as well, because it's to big for an animal. :dopefish

Sorry if you think I've gone to far. So if you feel offended, sorry that was not intention.

RKP series is cursed: people keep comparing it with Isis 2

Xtraverse
Stranded Fish
Posts: 1628
(3/15/03 4:33 pm)
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Re: RE:

I just don't like your complete lack of respect for the views of religious people.

Flaose
Pooper, King of the Slugs
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(3/16/03 3:20 am)
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Re: RE:

Quote:
Originally Posted by: therealdopefish
Yes, and Einstein also lived in a time when there was no such thing as freedom of religion and where it was not normal if you didn't have the same religion as you parents.

Einstein wasn't exactly known to follow the norm...is it really that hard to figure out that Einstein was a religious person because he truly belived, not because 'his parents did'. Why did Einstein know that the model of the atom was incomplete? Because 'God would not play dice with the building blocks of life.'

--------------------
Cerebral Cortex 314 - For All of your Commander Keen Needs.

therealdopefish
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Re: RE:

Xtraverse, that was actually the point of that reply. I wanted to tell how I got this opinion. Basically if you know me you wouldn't notice anything unusual about me. And that's because I know I haven't hardly any respect for religion. And why not changing it? Because that wouldn't fit me. Besides I don't see I can harm anyone with my opinion. I'm even friendly to Jehova Witnesses. And I live in a very Christian Village: if the results of the elections of our village would be the results of the election of the country the small Christian Party would be 4th in size, instead of 8th in size.
But I keep my mouth shut for now with any these words, before some people start disrespecting me.
May be one day you'll find out I was right or may be one day I'll find out you were all right. Don't count on it though.

RKP series is cursed: people keep comparing it with Isis 2

Djaser

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Re: wat do u believe?

Quote:
It's as good as evidence. Wouldn't it be one big coincidence if there are hundreds of fossils of creatures and that also fossils are found from a primitive version of these creatures which lived before them? I don't think so. And not everything is a theory. You can't say that Compsognathus and Archaeopteryx look a lot like each other is a theory.

Lol I didn't attack you Dopefish, in fact I agree with the evidence. In my opinion it doesn't attack creatorism. I feel to lazy right now to explain why :tired

Quote:
If you still don't understand evolution. It's not that an animal changes in a different animal, but if an animal get kids these kid look different than their parent. And add million of years to it and they're entirely different than their very old ancestors. And sometimes born kids get deviations. And with enough deviations you get a new species.

I doubt if anyone on this forum don't know what the evolution theory includes.

Quote:
Remember that it's humankind who splits all animals in species.

100% true. Do you think that God did that?

It's so simple, yet almost nobody who is religious believes it because they're so obstinate. But then again live in your dream world with the idea that after you die you get in heaven and get a prosper afterlife. I prefer reality and just see what happens.

Quote:
Yes, and Einstein also lived in a time when there was no such thing as freedom of religion and where it was not normal if you didn't have the same religion as you parents.

MWUHAHAHAHAHAHAH :lol

, Einstein lived in Germany and you know what Hitler was an atheist :mortlol

Quote:
And my Maths teacher is also very religious: he always started reading from the Bible in class.

You probably are on a religious school so whats your problem? BTF I am expect to learn the theories who crush my believe why shouldn't you learn something about my believe so we can understant eachother better.

Quote:
And I thought I wrote 'there are' which means I don't say every religious person is like that. You can't place every person in a group.
I know not many of you respect my opinion as it would be to simplistic, and may be even racial, but I can garantuee that's not the case. I'm just a regular guy like most of you with only one difference: and that is my opinion about religion.
If you think my opinion about religion is to simplistic: It's just the result of years of seeing what religion has for effect on humans, so far from simplistic. And also religion courses and history courses on school has lowered my tolerance for religion even more(while it actually had to do the opposite). I'm not kind of guy who actually follows the group(but I'm not kind of guy who do actually the opposite as well). I do what I find most efficient and revolt everything which is time-consuming and has hardly no effect/result. And religion is in my eyes the king of monkey-do. But any animal is doing what the group does.

What the **** you know I'm also not a group-follower and still I'm a Christian. I can't say more about it only that it in my opinion is VERY wrong if you don't respect a group of people only because they think different than you. And the reason I don't respect you and your opinion is taht you don't respect mine and that of other Christian people on the foru,

Quote:
Oh wait many religious people say humans are not animals, because they can think and have feelings and intelligence. In that case the Blue Whale isn't an animal as well, because it's to big for an animal.

Mhh we are actually more involved because our brain is simply superiour to thast of other animals. I think that makes us better, but that is also the reason why must protect the other creatures on this planet. Don't get me wrong I probably love animals more that most of you on the forum. Ow and about your whale that's a very weak argument.

Quote:
Besides I don't see I can harm anyone with my opinion. I'm even friendly to Jehova Witnesses. And I live in a very Christian Village: if the results of the elections of our village would be the results of the election of the country the small Christian Party would be 4th in size, instead of 8th in size.

You offend people with your opinion on this forum. And btf you don't respect most people (and probably friends) in your village?

Quote:
May be one day you'll find out I was right or may be one day I'll find out you were all right. Don't count on it though.

Noooooooh you really don't believe that your and only your opinion is 100% true. That's a **** arrogant statement!

Edited by: Djaser at: 3/16/03 12:34:58 pm

Xtraverse
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Re: wat do u believe?

I'm don't believe in God or anything dopefish, I have similar views to you.

LordOfGlobox
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RE:

Sorry, Ya'all I haven't posted for a while.
I think I'll just keep out of this.

baabis
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Re: RE:

The reason why I don't respect the religious point of view is that if there was no such thing as religion, and we would start pondering the structure of the universe, evolution etc.. the idea that there was a god would seem way too far-fetched to be even considered.

Djaser

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Re: RE:

Quote:
The reason why I don't respect the religious point of view is that if there was no such thing as religion, and we would start pondering the structure of the universe, evolution etc.. the idea that there was a god would seem way too far-fetched to be even considered.

Not true at all, we have discussed this before. But one thing: It was the church who save the Roman knowlge when their empire collapsed.
And there is no reason to blame people for what there ancestors did. Yours were Christians as well.
If you think this way then should black people hate us because there ancestors were slaves in our service.
And we should prosecute the Jews because they killed Jesus.
That isn't the right way to think. Is it?

Edited by: Djaser at: 3/17/03 12:48:53 pm

LordOfGlobox
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a thought

Here's a thought for you all:

the universe had a origin (general theory of relativity)

A new question, matter & energy cannot create itself therefore something had to, so what made it?

therealdopefish
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Re: a thought

How everything started is a paradox LordOfGlobox. Like you can say that the universe should be created by something, but then that "thing" that created the universe should be created by something, etc.
And Djaser, you are exaggerating. So I say we should punnish the Jewish, because they betrayed Jezus? I still don't believe Jezus ever lived. And it seem I'm not the only one. I read a book review in a newspaper about someone who wrote a book that Jezus Christ was actually the God-like version of Julius Caesar. In the book he wrote the similarities between the two persons and that he couldn't find any inequalities. Both betrayed, both lived at the same age. A theologist said that this could be the discovery of the century if it's true as it's an entirely different thought than the traditional Christian thoughts, like Galileo did hundreds of years ago. Well, I think that theologist is a bit exaggerating, but it does say what I mean: and that is that there's something wrong about the Christian way of thinking how the world evolved. The problem is that I can't prove it nor convince you guys, but I just feel it's incorrect.

RKP series is cursed: people keep comparing it with Isis 2

LordOfGlobox
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RE:

But God was not created, he has been and always will be.

Xtraverse
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Re: RE:

Yes, but how?

And Jesus lived, there are many records other than the Bible of him, including religious texts of other religions. I believe he was a good man, just not the son of God or anything.

Djaser

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Re: RE:

Quote:
How everything started is a paradox LordOfGlobox. Like you can say that the universe should be created by something, but then that "thing" that created the universe should be created by something, etc.

Good point. But both things are a believe: 1. The Universe must be created 2. the Universe has always been

Quote:
And Djaser, you are exaggerating. So I say we should punnish the Jewish, because they betrayed Jezus?

Perhaps, but remember I only reasoned like Baabis did.

Quote:
I still don't believe Jezus ever lived.

Yeah Buda en Mohammed didn't exict as well :no

.
Get real Dopefish there is enough evidence that Jesus lived.

Quote:
And it seem I'm not the only one. I read a book review in a newspaper about someone who wrote a book that Jezus Christ was actually the God-like version of Julius Caesar. In the book he wrote the similarities between the two persons and that he couldn't find any inequalities. Both betrayed, both lived at the same age. A theologist said that this could be the discovery of the century if it's true as it's an entirely different thought than the traditional Christian thoughts, like Galileo did hundreds of years ago.

Yeah but that is ridiculous. JC was a friend of the Jews but he didn't live there had Jews as his best friends didn't had a vision of live, wasn't killed by Jews ect. If Jesus was JC indeed we would have at least books written by JC about ways to live. And do you also believe that Pilatus, David, and Salomo didn't live.

LordOfGlobox
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Xtraverse?

What do you believe, Xtra? (I know you posted it a while ago bu I forget)

Xtraverse
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Re: Xtraverse?

I believe that:
The universe was created by the Big Bang. How the big bang came to be I do not know. On earth (and I'm sure other planets in this massive universe) primitive lifeforms emerged, evolved, etc... I don't believe in a God or anything, and I really have no clue what happens to us after we die.

Grelphy
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Re: Xtraverse?

Agree with Xtraverse. Although I think that there is a possibility that maybe a God caused the big bang and is now watching the universe, or has just left. I see little or no evidence of active meddling in the affairs of this universe by a God.

That's enough of that...

You and all those other mental wimps deserve to die!
-Mortimer Mcmire in Commander Keen 3

ceilick

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Re: wat do u believe?

Xtraverse, you said above that you do not believe that Jesus was the son of God. Jesus being the son of God refers to Him as God in the form of a man. Not litterly his son.

therealdopefish
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Re: wat do u believe?

I'm not going to reply to this topic anymore and see how long it takes before this topic subsidies.

RKP series is cursed: people keep comparing it with Isis 2

KeenEmpire
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Re: wat do u believe?

Maybe God's waiting for us to do something.

"...And during the 'DemOps' event, Keen set the series of events leading to the formation of the Second Universal Empire That Ever Existed...

...That Empire, with an economy based on capitalism, and yet not quite, was..."

-The Summerizer's Guide to the Universe, Day Edition; Last updated 8/14/2021.

LordOfGlobox
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RE:xtraverse?

That's not a bad belief if you could explain the "Big Bang", it actually makes little sense, because the probability of that happening is so unlikely, that it is impossible.

Xtraverse
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Re: RE:xtraverse?

Quote:
Xtraverse, you said above that you do not believe that Jesus was the son of God. Jesus being the son of God refers to Him as God in the form of a man. Not litterly his son.

Yes I know that, but he is commonly referred to as the Son of God as well.

Djaser

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Re: RE:xtraverse?

Quote:
I'm not going to reply to this topic anymore and see how long it takes before this topic subsidies.

It doesn't make sense to start a discussion and than just leave it

LordOfGlobox
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Dopefish

I don't care feel free to post any time. (just question, why aren't you posting?)

therealdopefish
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Re: Dopefish

OK, if people say I should reply then I reply.

Quote:
That's not a bad belief if you could explain the "Big Bang", it actually makes little sense, because the probability of that happening is so unlikely, that it is impossible.

So believing in God does make sense? All you do is shifting the impossible to answer question. Like you say that the universe should have been created by something, so God exists. But then God should have been created by something as well. :evil

Something I come up during Logica courses:
If something is not created it does not exist.
God is not created, so he does not exist.

The earth exists, so it's created.
Only God could create the earth.
God is not created, so he does not exist
As god does not exist he can't have created the earth, so the earth doesn't exist.

These statements make sense(because they're thought by using simple logica), but are nonsense(the only thing to make this right is by rejecting the statement 'if someting is not created it does not exist'). :confused

Confusing isn't it? :mortlol

RKP series is cursed: people keep comparing it with Isis 2

Djaser

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Re: Dopefish

That's why I say both things are a believe.

Ow and Dopefish I've a question for you: You use a Lotr parodie in your game. But Tolkien was a Christian and what's more: he used Christian stories for writting the book. If you don't respect Christians than why do you use subjects for your game?

Edited by: Djaser at: 3/19/03 7:23:32 pm

UppyII
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Re: Dopefish

Quote:
If something is not created it does not exist.
God is not created, so he does not exist.

The earth exists, so it's created.
Only God could create the earth.
God is not created, so he does not exist
As god does not exist he can't have created the earth, so the earth doesn't exist

If God were created then He wouldn't be God. God is eternal and created time and the universe. Where did you get this 'if something is not created it does not exist'? Did you observe this? Is it universal? How can you account for any universal laws?

Quote:
Confusing isn't it?

No, not at all.

And before you accuse me of picking and choosing, there's more to come...

Edited by: UppyII at: 3/19/03 7:58:50 pm

Xtraverse
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Re: Dopefish

Quote:
If God were created then He wouldn't be God. God is eternal and created time and the universe.

That's exactly our point. (or at least mine) I don't believe something can exist without being created. That's why I'm unsure about the origin of the universe.

therealdopefish
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Re: Dopefish

Yeah, well it's mine point as well.
What has LotR has to do with Christianity? LotR is fantasy, or do you really believe in Balrogs, Wizzards, Dwarfs and Elves? :dopekeen

Tolkien created a fantasy world you could everything about in his books. What has that to do with Christianity?
Funny, you know in Newspaper you have these people writing letters. Someone said he starts to believe that religion is "evil". That comes close to my thoughts. Especially if I hear Bush saying "God Bless America" and Sadam Hussein saying "Allah will help us defeat the Americans" then I'm happy I don't believe in any god. Nationalism and keep believing in your own religion, what's the difference? Religion only leads to hate to other people who have other thoughts. That's the main reason I disrespect religion.
Before someone say I do the same: disrespecting and hating is something else.

RKP series is cursed: people keep comparing it with Isis 2

Xtraverse
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Re: Dopefish

According to Uppy, LotR must be evil.

UppyII
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Re: Dopefish

May I ask why?

Djaser

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Re: Dopefish

Quote:
What has LotR has to do with Christianity? LotR is fantasy, or do you really believe in Balrogs, Wizzards, Dwarfs and Elves? Tolkien created a fantasy world you could everything about in his books. What has that to do with Christianity?

You really dissapoint me, you say only your opinion is truen and you don't know nothing about this literair book.
Ow and read some newspaper or search the net if I go to fast for you if I say that Lodr in fact is a Christian story based on the bible.

Quote:
Especially if I hear Bush saying "God Bless America" and Sadam Hussein saying "Allah will help us defeat the Americans" then I'm happy I don't believe in any god.

Good for you but you seem to ignore the point that neither Saddam nor Bush government is based on relegion. Saddam is a terrible man but he doesn't handle in name of the Islam.

LordOfGlobox
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RE:stuff

LotR was mode after christian life.

Xtraverse
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Re: RE:stuff

Hmmm..you say Harry Potter contains magic, which is "forbidden by God." LotR contains magic too now doesn't it? (duhhh...) :spotkeen

Typo, said "my" instead of "by"

Edited by: Xtraverse at: 3/21/03 1:36:22 am

ceilick

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Re: wat do u believe?

I dont think its bad to read about stories that contain magic, its when after reading those books you want to become a wizard/witch that is evil.

Grelphy
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Re: wat do u believe?

Since becoming a wizard/witch is not really possible, there's nothing evil about it at all. It may be a fantasy, but there's not, or shouldn't be, anything wrong with dreaming.

On the topic of logical negation of the Earth: actually, if we assume that something has been around forever, it has not necesarily been created. It has just always been. If you beleive the theory that there were an infinite number of universes "before" this one, and there will be and infinite number of universes "after" this one, that allows for the Earth to exist without being created, doesn't it?

(Infinity resists logic, it resests reason, it resists everything.)

You and all those other mental wimps deserve to die!
-Mortimer Mcmire in Commander Keen 3

ceilick

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Re: wat do u believe?

Actually, becoming a wizard/witch is possible. These people use the power of the devil/satan.

Xtraverse
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Re: wat do u believe?

So you believe there are real wizards/witches out there? Somehow I really doubt that if they're even pretending to be doing magick, that they're thinking about the devil at all.

LordOfGlobox
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RE:HP

Actually, Xtra, I'm all for HP, i don't think its really bad.

Xtraverse
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Re: RE:HP

Yeah, it's just Uppy and ceilick that appear to be against it.

therealdopefish
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Re: RE:HP

Actually LotR is fantasy, so everything I've seen in that movie I've seen it as fantasy. I think it's a bad question. It's the same as you asking why I watched Independence Day(nationalistic movie :barf

) but don't believe in aliens. Well, actually I believe there must be more life on other planets in other solar systems, but that's off topic.
And I have nothing against any culture what has to do with any type of religion. I don't shout that churches should be destroyed, or anything like it. That would be "evil" :mortlol

Then about magic: People shooting with lightning or using their arms to raise objects is as unreal as possible. Real Wizzards are just magicians. Anyone who believes everything like that is pretty weird. Well, at least it's highly likely they didn't imitate their parents with that.

RKP series is cursed: people keep comparing it with Isis 2

Djaser

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Re: RE:HP

Quote:
Independence Day(nationalistic movie ) but don't believe in aliens. Well, actually I believe there must be more life on other planets in other solar systems, but that's off topic.

But what if it was made by people who believe in aliens?
Would you still have the right to disrespect people who believe in aliens. I don't say you shouldn't use things made by Christians but when it has something to do with their religion like lodr is it wrong to disrespect religion.

ceilick

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Re: wat do u believe?

Im not talking about magicians(cuz thats an illusion). Wizards and witches are real. I'm not against harry Potter, I just think that some people could get the wrong idea and become a wizard/witch. You dont believe in God and therefore dont believe in the devil either. Thats why you dont believe its real.

Xtraverse
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Re: wat do u believe?

But I don't see how someone could get the wrong idea from Harry Potter considering it doesn't mention Satan (as far as I can remember).

ceilick

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Re: wat do u believe?

Thats just it, they would think doing magic was not bad.

therealdopefish
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Re: wat do u believe?

Yeah, sure and you also believe in Poltergeists and the Boos from Super Mario Bros. :lol

Ceilick, did you ever meet(or seen on TV) persons who say they're a witch? Those people say that they don't do black magic, aren't followers of the devil. And they use only all sorts of plants to make potions what should be usefull against certain remedies(well that's what they say).
And Djaser, stop talking about LotR. The disrespect is not for the culture, but for the way they think. Churches could be good place to meet people(not my way of meeting other people though) and are not unpleasant to look at(I prefer Gothic over Roman building style though). But the opinion of any religion is based on nothing, while science is based on facts(and if there are no facts, it's a theory).
Hhhmm... I think I use the word though too much, though.

RKP series is cursed: people keep comparing it with Isis 2

Xtraverse
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Re: wat do u believe?

Quote:
and if there are no facts, it's a theory

Isn't gravity still called a theory?

LordOfGlobox
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RE:

Nice one, Xtra!

ceilick

Vortininja
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Re: wat do u believe?

someone might of said this already, but evelution is also a theory, it cant be proved.

LordOfGlobox
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re:.

Nice one, Ceilick.

Grelphy
Vortininja
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Re: re:.

Well, see, evolution has already been proven. I'm to lazy to look for a link to prove it (no pun intended), but you can take my word for it. Scientists have "produced" evolution in the lab.

It's called a "theory" for some other reason. An idea that has yet to be proven is called a "hypothesis." Word lovers, go nuts.

THat's all I can think of now.

You and all those other mental wimps deserve to die!
-Mortimer Mcmire in Commander Keen 3

ceilick

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Re: wat do u believe?

show me a link. Its probably something like the peppered moth case.

kittyyorp
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*sigh*

hello again. i have a few things to say about this. a while ago someone said something about god creating something and letting it evolve. first of all, that still would mean that if u believed that then u still think there's a God. Second, why would God create something and let a simple thing like evolution just "take over". Third, why would a God who sent his Son to die for us just "sit back" and watch us live our lives?

and, did u know that the author of lotr was a christian?

Grelphy
Vortininja
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*sigh*

The peppered moth case was evolution, on a very small scale and over a very short period of time. The moths adapted to their surroundings; given enough time, there would have been speciation and evolution would have been said to have occured.

BTW, two organisms are said to be of "different species" when they cannot interbreed.

Also, I never said there wasn't a God. I just disputed that He/She/It takes an active role in the universe. Or maybe that was someone else.

You and all those other mental wimps deserve to die!
-Mortimer Mcmire in Commander Keen 3

ceilick

Vortininja
Posts: 150
(3/24/03 1:17 am)
207.252.227.7
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Re: wat do u believe?

It was still a moth, thow. That does not prove evolution. If it had changed to a house fly, then it would be evolution.

Xtraverse
Stranded Fish
Posts: 1780
(3/24/03 1:35 am)
24.48.163.42
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Re: wat do u believe?

Quote:
Second, why would God create something and let a simple thing like evolution just "take over". Third, why would a God who sent his Son to die for us just "sit back" and watch us live our lives?

If God does exist, how the heck would I know His motives?

chogall
Vorticon Elder
Posts: 1255
(3/24/03 12:24 pm)
129.240.97.75
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ezSupporter

Re: re:.

You guys don't understand how science works. It is unable to prove that the theory of evolution is universally true. However, scientists have observed that all sightings of how things happen in nature consist with what the theory of evolution predicts, therefore it is accepted as true. If one day evidence is gathered that is incompatible with the theory of evolution, the theory will be rejected and one will attempt to make a new hypothesis explaining those facts.

But saying that evolution is "just a theory" or "not proven" and therefore false is a completely flawed point of view. The theory of gravity has not been proved, but it is consistent with how the universe behaves. Would you deny the fact that a person jumping off a tall building would fall to his doom, just because gravitation is "just a theory" and "not proved"?

If the theory of evolution were to be rejected, someone would have to make an observation that shows something that has happened which is in opposition with the said theory, publish it and have it accepted as valid. This hasn't happened, therefore the theory of evolution is accepted as true.

Xtraverse
Stranded Fish
Posts: 1784
(3/24/03 12:46 pm)
24.48.163.42
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Re: re:.

Gravity's not true! It's all just a big pumpkin in the center of the earth trying to suck us in! :eek

LordOfGlobox
Vortininja
Posts: 111
(3/24/03 1:17 pm)
209.81.165.143
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Ok, first of all, the Peppered Moth case is irrelivent, because it's not consistent with what Evolution says, the Pepered moths didn't change, they were already there before so how did they evolve? The birds just ate more of the white ones because they were more visable than the black ones, & then visa-versa happened, they didn't change into something else, so thats no proof.

LordOfGlobox
Vortininja
Posts: 112
(3/24/03 1:31 pm)
209.81.165.236
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Also, that goes agianst what "Evolution" says, shouldn't it "evolve" into a grey moth? because the "grey" moth would fit perfectly into it's habatat, wouldn't it?

(don't post back saying "Well it's because it wouldn't have enough time to evolve" because it's as they're as black as they were then as they are today, & the same goes for other ones)

Flaose
Pooper, King of the Slugs
Posts: 829
(3/24/03 1:56 pm)
68.147.124.200
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Re: wat do u believe?

Grelphy, please stop saying that you have proof of such-and-such but are too lazy to find a link for it. This applies to both this and the Harry Potter thread.

Besides, the internet isn't exactly a reliable source a lot of the time.

--------------------
Cerebral Cortex 314 - For All of your Commander Keen Needs.

chogall
Vorticon Elder
Posts: 1257
(3/24/03 5:43 pm)
217.70.229.196
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ezSupporter

Re: .`

Quote:
Pepered moths didn't change, they were already there before so how did they evolve? The birds just ate more of the white ones because they were more visable than the black ones, & then visa-versa happened, they didn't change into something else, so thats no proof.

What you need to understand is: Evolution doesn't happen on individual basis, but on population basis. One animal doesn't suddenly turn into another, but the genetic composition of a population changes over time.
Imagine a place with only white moths being predated by birds. A genetic mutation, or the combination of several mutations, causes moths to be born which happen to be black. The black moths are much less predated than the white ones because the birds cannot see them as easily. This is called selection, and we say that the white moths are being selected against. This leads to an advantage for the black moths, so their numbers increase dramatically. But the white and the black moths aren't separate species yet, because the differences between them only concern the color and they can still interbreed.

But genetic mutations happen all the time. If the white and the black moth populations are kept separate for a long time, they will both accumulate mutations. Some of those may cause certain biochemical changes. Since the populations are separate, these changes are different in both populations and may lead to the two types of moths no longer being able to interbreed. They will then be two different species.

Since the two moth species can no longer interbreed, there is no genetic exchange between the two populations. Changes may then occur independently which make the two species even more distinct.

Of course, this is just a basic explanation of parts of the theory of evolution. If you want to learn more, you might want to get yourself a Biology textbook.

therealdopefish
Vorticon Elite
Posts: 385
(3/24/03 6:31 pm)
62.251.83.73
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Re: .`

That's what I keep saying. May be I was a bit less clear. But I'm not great in discussions anyway.
Funny, everone who believes the evolution theory has or had biology lessons.

RKP series is cursed: people keep comparing it with Isis 2

Edited by: therealdopefish at: 3/25/03 3:14:16 pm

Grelphy
Vortininja
Posts: 201
(3/24/03 8:08 pm)
12.23.198.254
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Proof!

Alright, I can't prove anything. Mostly, what I'm saying is based on what I know to be true, and common-sense observations stemming from that.

I can, however, prove that I have nothing of importance to say now. =)

LordOfGlobox
Vortininja
Posts: 114
(3/24/03 8:31 pm)
209.81.166.54
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Re: Proof!

But they still aren't "evolving".

Grelphy
Vortininja
Posts: 206
(3/24/03 8:53 pm)
12.23.198.254
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Re: Proof!

Given long enough, they would.

That is what the theory of evolution says. If the dark moths had been seperated from the light moths, and the light moths had been kept alivee somehow, eventually the dark moths would have lost their ability to interbreed with the dark moths and they would have been seperate species. Evolution would have occurred. It takes thousands to millions of years, buut it does happen.\

Among microbes, natural selection occurs much faster. The AIDS virus, for example, will adapt to become resistant to the drugs that are used against it.

Or you're talking about something else, and I missed your point completely. =)

You and all those other mental wimps deserve to die!
-Mortimer Mcmire in Commander Keen 3

chogall
Vorticon Elder
Posts: 1259
(3/24/03 9:50 pm)
217.70.229.196
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ezSupporter

Re: Proof!

Quote:
But they still aren't "evolving".

Yes, that's right. "They" (the individuals) aren't evolving. But the genetic compositions of the populations they belong to are evolving.

ceilick

Vortininja
Posts: 153
(3/25/03 12:02 am)
207.252.227.7
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Re: wat do u believe?

but the moth never changes into anything but a moth.

Flaose
Pooper, King of the Slugs
Posts: 836
(3/25/03 3:33 pm)
68.147.124.200
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Re: wat do u believe?

Given time it could. How many times does Cho'gall have to repeat himself...

--------------------
Cerebral Cortex 314 - For All of your Commander Keen Needs.

Xtraverse
Stranded Fish
Posts: 1817
(3/25/03 4:56 pm)
64.30.37.14
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Re: wat do u believe?

err..why'd you unlock this?

Flaose
Pooper, King of the Slugs
Posts: 840
(3/25/03 5:01 pm)
68.147.124.200
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Re: wat do u believe?

I didn't...I didn't even know that it had been locked.
Discussion continued here: pub128.ezboard.com/fpubli...=284.topic

--------------------
Cerebral Cortex 314 - For All of your Commander Keen Needs.

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