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eK Isonian Posts: 1137 (4/18/03 8:46 pm) 143.109.91.236 Reply \| Edit \| Del All	Uppy and Shadow I recently discovered that Uppy and Shadow are likely the same person. They share ips (look at the first page of the EU Armed Forces topic), they act similarly, Shadow lists himself as being from the same town Uppy is from (Spokane, WA), Shadow began posting in the evolution thread instantly upon joining, and coincidentally Uppy stopped posting as often. Anyway, there's lots of evidence. I personally don't like being mislead like that. It's one thing to change your nick or to rejoin the community with a new one, but it's quite another to pretend to be two different people at once. I'm not quite sure what to do about this, and neither if Flaose. Cho'gall is away at the moment, and until he gets back not much will happen. Uppy has been put on probation, allowing him one page view and one post a day as punishment. I want your guys's opinion on what you think we should do when people do things like this. Uppy will remain on probation until Cho'gall shows up (meaning all of this weekend) and then we'll make a decision. Likely this will be his only punishment, but I'm not sure. To justify my actions, I want you to know this isn't the first time he's done this. He's done this more than once in #keeners and it's not appreciated there either. Shadow's membership has been revoked also.
Flaose Pooper, King of the Slugs Posts: 954 (4/18/03 11:04 pm) 68.147.124.200 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow FYI: I thought one page view per day was a little harsh (and a little ineffective at the moment, as guests can view as many pages as they want), so it's been set to unlimited. There is still a one post limit though. From now on, Probation will become a "first-strike" punishment for members, as opposed to banishment ("second-strike" is banishment for a short period of time, usually a week, and "third-strike" is total and complete banishment). -------------------- Cerebral Cortex 314 - For All of your Commander Keen Needs.
Forge315 Grand Intellect Posts: 1404 (4/19/03 12:25 am) 68.106.137.215 Reply \| Edit \| Del	For me this is what it is Have any of you seen an old movie where a king would put on peasant clothing. After this he would wander the countryside getting to know the people and live equally with them. He had to do this because they d him, and would be offended if such a deceit was discovered. Was this wrong though? For me, I think only if it was used for wrong. UppyII, has not hurt anybody. He is still himself even if you do not know it. The only thing that would change is you would view him without a preset opinion, an opinion that can be used to judge and condemn someone for who they were and may still be. Also lets note, that there would always be a few souls among those peasants who understood that the king was not ‘evil’ or ‘bad’ and they felt no ill will towards his actions. I understand, that a person running around with multiple aliases is not appreciated. I did not like it two years ago on Aprils 1st, when a Keen fan ran around this forum pretending to be a hacker. However it was not wrong then, and I assert it is not wrong now. Edited by: Forge315 at: 4/19/03 4:48:57 am
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 465 (4/19/03 12:50 am) 203.213.60.64 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: For me this is what it is hey, eK has every right to be angry, i think, it's either chogall or eK who needs to pay for every member who joins i guess. So it's not fair for them. :moon Take that iD for not toasting the universe!
Forge315 Grand Intellect Posts: 1405 (4/19/03 5:13 am) 68.106.137.215 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: For me this is what it is That would not make it wrong though, I would concede though if there was a rule about it (which there is not) then it would be ill advised. If the administrators want to start limiting such things, they could start by talking to the individual about it and not punishing them, however that is just my preference. Everybody has his or hers ideas about things, I view things with the saying lex rex (law is king) and I will say something when an action seems to not be justified or done with justice. Everything has some justice from a perspective but that never makes it justice, because rex lex (king is law) is not a definition that defines absolute justice and is therefore open to stipulation. Hence that is why I have posted and do post as such, for my opinions are realistically just as important as yours or the administrators.
KeenEmpire Keen's Empire Posts: 561 (4/19/03 8:32 am) 203.151.38.3 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow The reasons (to intimidate opponents, to allow attacks by different people without having to make an overlapping defense against hypocricy) are far less humble than a king wishing to disguise himself as a peasant. I wouldn't condede that that would make the punishment any more right, though. There is another thing, which ironically relates to the social contract that Uppy keeps rejecting. One person, making more than one alias, would not cause much trouble amongst the population, just as one murder wouldn't change much in the long run. However, if everyone, or a significantly many people, started posting with multiple aliases, then there would be chaos in the boards. Who knows who's who? I'm not saying that creating multiple aliases is comparable to murder, but the fact is that this must be prevented from getting out of hand. It only works if you look at things from a larger perspective, I guess. However, because this is not a serious case of abuse, and for the reasons that Forge stated earlier, I too would be surprised if Uppy's punishment would be anything more than a probation until Cho'gall arrives. eK gives the impression, from his justification of Uppy already doing this "more than once," that he has already talked to him on this. I wouldn't be sure about it, though. Alpha, Alpha, before with shouts of W00t! Hornets flew there; the light upon the silver Staff Suit, Fell like black rain upon the bases of the squads of old, Oh proud Walls, oh shooting turrets, oh unblocked road for all the bold! Alpha, Alpha, will infs behold the silver suit, Or bubblegum blow again with cries of happy W00t?
eK Isonian Posts: 1138 (4/19/03 1:27 pm) 143.109.91.236 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow He did it once that I remember in #keeners. Once to me, and I think he did it once to Yorpy while I wasn't around.
Forge315 Grand Intellect Posts: 1407 (4/19/03 2:01 pm) 68.106.137.215 Reply \| Edit \| Del	. There should be a limited number of rules about it indeed. He, eK, was specifically talking about the chatroom, and it is common place to use different aliases at such places. Of course if that is something eK has already laid down as a rule for the chatroom and UppyII broke it ‘afterwards’ then I see some reason. However I might argue the point that a chatroom is a completely different place and should not be viewed in introspective to the forum. Personally I don’t go to the chat room because I hold it to lack quality standards, so anything from it will get little strength with me; that is just my disadvantage though.
therealdopefish Vorticon Elite Posts: 425 (4/19/03 2:07 pm) 62.251.83.73 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: . Already had some feelings that Shadow was someone else. Already noticed that he started posting in the religion topic and only replies in the religion topic. RKP series is cursed: people keep comparing it with Isis 2
KeenEmpire Keen's Empire Posts: 562 (4/19/03 2:13 pm) 203.151.38.3 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: . I wouldn't think eK was referring to simply changing names. *Quote:* It's one thing to change your nick or to rejoin the community with a new one, but it's quite another to pretend to be two different people at once. It might simply be me, though. Alpha, Alpha, before with shouts of W00t! Hornets flew there; the light upon the silver Staff Suit, Fell like black rain upon the bases of the squads of old, Oh proud Walls, oh shooting turrets, oh unblocked road for all the bold! Alpha, Alpha, will infs behold the silver suit, Or bubblegum blow again with cries of happy W00t? Edited by: KeenEmpire at: 4/19/03 2:13:42 pm
eK Isonian Posts: 1140 (4/19/03 4:15 pm) 143.109.91.236 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: . How about I show you what I'm talking about. Here's a log I took of the event. [23:35] <BenAdnam> Hello. [23:35] <eK-isis> er [23:35] <eK-isis> allo [23:35] <eK-isis> who are you? [23:35] <BenAdnam> I'm looking for the 'upravlenie'. [23:36] <eK-isis> he's not here, though he may be by, he has been by here in the past [23:36] <eK-isis> did he tell you to come here? [23:36] <BenAdnam> No, he did not. Have you talked to him? [23:37] <eK-isis> earlier today, why? [23:37] <BenAdnam> Really?! What did he say? [23:38] <eK-isis> I don't know, tell me something specific to look for and I can search my logs. [23:38] <BenAdnam> Anything about his location or "GRU". [23:39] <eK-isis> nope [23:39] <BenAdnam> You're the only helpful person I've found all night. Thanks! [23:39] <eK-isis> I'd remember [23:39] <eK-isis> I don't know what GRU is -- and he's never said where he lives. [23:40] <BenAdnam> No? How about submarines? Specifically the typhoon class. [23:40] <eK-isis> nope [23:40] <eK-isis> we talk about completely different stuff here. [23:41] <BenAdnam> Like what? [23:41] <eK-isis> the commander keen community [23:41] <eK-isis> stuff going on there. [23:41] <eK-isis> occasionally other, more normal topics, such as school ... [23:42] <BenAdnam> Commander keen? [23:42] <eK-isis> want me to tell him you were looking for him? [23:42] <eK-isis> it's an old game made by id software - makers of Doom, Quake, etc. [23:42] <BenAdnam> NO. Please don't. That might scare him off. [23:43] <eK-isis> uh, how could it scare him off? [23:43] <BenAdnam> Has he ever talked about nuclear propulsion systems or hydrogen fuel cells? [23:44] <eK-isis> briefly [23:44] <BenAdnam> We've been on to him for quite some time. We don't want all of our time wasted. [23:45] <eK-isis> ? [23:45] <BenAdnam> Briefly!? Could you please give me some specifics? [23:45] <eK-isis> not without knowing why you need the information. [23:46] <BenAdnam> I'm not at liberty to say. [23:46] <eK-isis> uh huh [23:47] <eK-isis> if you give me a reason to help you [23:47] <eK-isis> I'll galdly tell you all you need. [23:47] <eK-isis> or all I can anyway [23:47] * Now talking in #keeners [23:47] * Topic is 'eK is going to a Tool concert in 5 weeks!!!!' [23:47] * Set by eK-isis on Sat Sep 14 22:35:07 Session Close: Sat Sep 14 23:47:43 2002 [23:47] * Guest6666666 has joined #keeners [23:47] * Guest6666666 has left #keeners [23:48] <BenAdnam> Okay, he's sortof an informant for the KR. (indirectly) [23:48] <eK-isis> KR? [23:50] <eK-isis> hahaha [23:50] <BenAdnam> It's a Soviet(or Russian) counter-intelligence organization. [23:51] <eK-isis> hold on a sec [23:51] <BenAdnam> Not directly, of course. He's just a kid. He talked to someone who then talked to someone in the KR. [23:51] <BenAdnam> We need to know what EXACTALLY what he said to this man. [23:52] <eK-isis> so your in Russia? [23:52] <BenAdnam> Excuse me. We need to know EXACTALLY what he said. [23:52] <eK-isis> well [23:52] <BenAdnam> No, I'm not in Russia. [23:52] <eK-isis> your IP address is the same as his [23:53] <eK-isis> which makes me wonder if your not him [23:53] <BenAdnam> HAHAHAHA [23:53] <BenAdnam> [23:53] <BenAdnam> I'm Upravlenie! [23:53] <eK-isis> so ... [23:53] <eK-isis> wtf? [23:54] <BenAdnam> I dunno. I'm just going around asking for the upravlenie. [23:54] <eK-isis> that's messed up [23:54] <eK-isis> it's a good thing you didn't claim to be in russia [23:54] <BenAdnam> Yah, I know. [23:54] <eK-isis> because I'd already found out you weren't [23:55] <BenAdnam> I got banned from one channel. [23:55] <eK-isis> QWEST eh? [23:55] * BenAdnam is now known as Upravlenie [23:55] <Upravlenie> Qwest? [23:55] <eK-isis> yah [23:56] <eK-isis> that's where your IP is from. [23:56] <eK-isis> did you really think you could fool me forever? [23:56] <eK-isis> I'm watching you in #mircchat you know. [23:56] <Upravlenie> No. I was thinking mabey for a couple of minutes. [23:57] <Upravlenie> Watching me? [23:57] <eK-isis> yes [00:00] <eK-isis> I auto-join keeners when I connect [00:00] <Upravlenie> Some people were saying what a poor guy upravlenie was because everone was looking for him. [00:01] <eK-isis> well, if you ask me, this whole thing was just plain messed up. [00:02] <Upravlenie> What is? [00:02] <eK-isis> the BenAdnam thing [00:02] <Upravlenie> Why? [00:02] <eK-isis> uhh [00:02] <eK-isis> look, I'm gonna go [00:02] <eK-isis> cya
KeenEmpire Keen's Empire Posts: 563 (4/19/03 6:37 pm) 203.151.38.3 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: . Nevermind then... His email address was something like GruSp, btw. Alpha, Alpha, before with shouts of W00t! Hornets flew there; the light upon the silver Staff Suit, Fell like black rain upon the bases of the squads of old, Oh proud Walls, oh shooting turrets, oh unblocked road for all the bold! Alpha, Alpha, will infs behold the silver suit, Or bubblegum blow again with cries of happy W00t?
eK Isonian Posts: 1141 (4/19/03 6:41 pm) 143.109.91.236 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: . Uppy reminded me that he apologized for that incident later on. Probably within 4 or 5 days. I'd forgotten about that. I don't have a log of it though.
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 1340 (4/19/03 7:48 pm) 212.92.76.33 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: . I'm sure Uppy is sorry about this, I talked about the subject with him a few days ago. And he tolld me too that he has apologized. I have a few doubts about Uppy being Shadow.(I dont read the posts in these topics really careful so I can be wrong) 1. Shadow doesn't quote as much as Uppy does. 2. Both Uppy and Shadow are not as high-tempered as eK is, so why should Uppy create another account? 3. Why does Shadow claim to live in the same city as Uppy and tell us in the same topic Uppy did that he is home schooled. That doesn't make sense if you want to keep your identity secret. I at least don't think Uppy meaned to spamm us and since he has apologized to eK should we give him a second chance -----Djaser est un nation prétendue neutre mais, dans la réalité, il ne l'est pas car il n'arrête pas d'être envahie par les uns et sauvés par les autres. Djaser est normalement régie par une féodalité...-----
Forge315 Grand Intellect Posts: 1408 (4/19/03 7:50 pm) 68.106.137.215 Reply \| Edit \| Del	. ROFL, that's funny as hell! He shouldn't do that kind of thing here at least not now that he knows you don't like it, but the chatroom? How specifically is it inappropriate there?
Xtraverse Stranded Fish Posts: 2036 (4/19/03 8:43 pm) 24.48.163.42 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: . Shadow has used the exact same IP as Uppy on many occasions. The only possibility I can think of besides Shadow being Uppy, is that Shadow lives in the same household as Uppy.
eK Isonian Posts: 1142 (4/19/03 9:29 pm) 143.109.91.236 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow www.classicgaming.com/cc314/board.html III. Some things you may not do 4.) Pretend to be anyone other than yourself (i.e. a moderator or an administrator). 13.) Administrators have the right to judge any other behaviour bad. Use your common sense and you won't get any problems.
Forge315 Grand Intellect Posts: 1411 (4/20/03 12:12 am) 68.106.137.215 Reply \| Edit \| Del	. More of my opinions on this subject. Yes, and shadow is UppyII, he created him, he is not pretending to be you or anybody else. If your referring to the chatroom, that is different and does not apply, those rules are for this forum only IMO. There would be a problem if UppyII was pretending to be someone that really existed though, like Geoff. Though you do have the right to make judgments not all of them are necessarily correct. That is one reason it is good to have three administrators -- a better sense of justice is achieved. You were right to do something, about the possible UppyII+Shadow situation, I only question the degree. One post a day is harsh, he would have stopped if you asked I am sure.
Flaose Pooper, King of the Slugs Posts: 956 (4/20/03 2:11 am) 24.71.223.143 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: . He won't stop. He won't even admit that he's Shadow! He won't end the charade, and it's wearing very thin on me. -------------------- Cerebral Cortex 314 - For All of your Commander Keen Needs.
eK Isonian Posts: 1143 (4/20/03 2:20 am) 143.109.91.236 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: . I confronted him about it a day before I took action, before I had ip proof. I'm sure Cho'gall will feel the same about all this as Flaose and I do.
Forge315 Grand Intellect Posts: 1414 (4/20/03 3:13 am) 68.106.137.215 Reply \| Edit \| Del	. You cannot really be sure he is ignoring you, at least maybe not yet, but your right it wont do.
UppyII Probation Posts: 311 (4/20/03 7:00 am) 206.63.170.117 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: . I have a few things to say about this matter. First of all: cough, cough ahem Now, in all due seriousness: *Quote:* I recently discovered that Uppy and Shadow are likely the same person. As did I. *Quote:* They share ips (look at the first page of the EU Armed Forces topic), they act similarly, Shadow lists himself as being from the same town Uppy is from (Spokane, WA), Shadow began posting in the evolution thread instantly upon joining, and coincidentally Uppy stopped posting as often. Ok, you have at least a couple of possibilities here. First, Shadow and I are the same person. Second, two people are using the same isp. Funny how option #2 is so conveniently ignored. *Quote:* I personally don't like being mislead like that. Um, mislead how and by whom? *Quote:* It's one thing to change your nick or to rejoin the community with a new one, but it's quite another to pretend to be two different people at once. ...and it's a whole 'nother thing to be three people at once... *Quote:* I'm not quite sure what to do about this, and neither i[s] Flaose. It would seem otherwise. *Quote:* Cho'gall is away at the moment, and until he gets back not much will happen. Funny, because there sure seems to be a heck of a lot of 'not much' going on. Accusations, banishments, deletions, probations, ect. *Quote:* Uppy has been put on probation, allowing him one page view and one post a day as punishment. Why? For what? Because eK has this nagging feeling deep down inside that Shadow and I are 'likely' the same person? A little snippet from #keeners: <Uppy> So why am I on...'probation'? <eK> for decieving us <Uppy> How do you know I was decieving anyone? <eK> don't think I'm acting alone. I have Flaose's support on this <eK> because you and Shadow share the same ip <eK> I've given you the evidence So I'm deceiving you by sharing the same ip? I personally think that it's eK's imagination that's run away with him and is deceiving him. Am I shadow? Is Uppy really Shadow? You know, this really ought to be the question of the hour. Looking back through this thread, I don't see it even once. It would be nice to be given the question of the doubt. Anyway, back to the question. The question that I had to ask myself for eK. I'm not even going to give eK the privilege of an answer. eK deserves no such thing. How was I informed of this? Did I check my e-mail and find a letter stating that a concern had arisen about a possible violation of the forum guidelines and requesting me to clear the matter up? No, I was approached by eK, lied to, and told that he thought I was Shadow. What did I do? I did what was only natural. I laughed. Laughed at the ridiculousness of the idea; laughed at eK's paranoia. Did eK even talk to Shadow about this? Nope, deleted him before even thinking of it. E-mailing him should have been the first thing to do. What evidence is there really? The ip thing is not evidence that I'm Shadow. The only thing that it would point to is that two people have access to the same workstation or that two people are using the same isp or that I'm two people. Doesn't clear anything up. I act like Shadow? Ha, that's laughable. I'm not going to grace this with an answer either. *Quote:* Shadow lists himself as being from the same town Uppy is from (Spokane, WA), bam, you got me there. There's only one person here in Spokane and that's me. *Quote:* Shadow began posting in the evolution thread instantly upon joining, My third post was in the Harry Potter debate in which Forge315 was arguing. Ah, ha! That's evidence that I'm really Forge! *Quote:* and coincidentally Uppy stopped posting as often. As often as?? As often as when I had more to post about maybe? Just maybe?? Did that ever cross your imagination? *Quote:* To justify my actions, I want you to know this isn't the first time he's done this. He's done this more than once in #keeners and it's not appreciated there either. And that's justification? You call that justification?! Can't you see that it was just a joke? Only someone with a really stunted sense of humor would take that seriously. And why dig that up? That was a thing of the past. I think everyone should check the date on that discussion. That's right, September 14, 2002. Yes, and as eK forgot to mention, I did apologize: Session Start: Mon Sep 16 21:38:43 2002 Session Ident: eK-isis <Uppy> Hey look, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to hack you off. <eK-isis> alright <eK-isis> forgiven <eK-isis> no hard feelings <Uppy> Okay. Session Close: Mon Sep 16 21:44:31 2002 What happened then has absolutely no bearing on what is happening now. None. No hard feelings? From now on, I better record everything I say to eK because, chances are, when there's the slightest hint of trouble, it's going to be dug up and presented to the public. *Quote:* I confronted him about it a day before I took action, before I had ip proof. So what did you mean when you said: <Uppy> The evidence may certainly point in that direction, but you don't have proof, do you? <eK> of course not. <eK> it's not possible to get proof <eK> courts have convicted many times without conclusive proof <eK> sharing the same ip is evidence enough <eK> if we didn't have that we wouldn't have done anything If it's not possible to get proof, how did you manage to get 'proof'? *Quote:* I want your guys's opinion on what you think we should do when people do things like this. I honestly didn't think that eK would actually bring this out into public. I honestly didn't. I figured that when he talked to the other admins about it... <eK-is_cool> the admins and I are going to talk about this and decide what to do (if anything) ...that they would put their emotions aside, look at the facts, and make a level-headed decision. Well, obviously I was wrong. You ought to be ashamed, eK. Ashamed for lying; ashamed for bringing up that past like that and publicly humiliating me; ashamed for making such an emotionally charged decision. This is all very childish. You shouldn't make impulse-emotion decisions like this. Anyone can be a dictator. Not just anyone can be a leader. *Quote:* 3. Why does Shadow claim to live in the same city as Uppy and tell us in the same topic Uppy did that he is home schooled. That doesn't make sense if you want to keep your identity secret. –Djaser An excellent point, I might add. I'm surprised that nobody saw this little elephant of 'counter-evidence' right off the bat. *Quote:* Shadow has used the exact same IP as Uppy on many occasions. The only possibility I can think of besides Shadow being Uppy, is that Shadow lives in the same household as Uppy. –Xtraverse I present to you an example of someone who can think outside of the box. *Quote:* He won't stop. He won't even admit that he's Shadow! He won't end the charade, and it's wearing very thin on me. –Flaose Oh, so now you want me to admit that I'm guilty. I see how it goes... So, what's to be done about all of this? First, I should be taken off probation. There's absolutely no reason for me to be on it. Second, we should wait until Cho'gall gets back. Then, Cho'gall should be the one to make the decision. He's the only one who hasn't been involved and I can trust that he won't make a decision based on emotion. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have better things to do with my life then playing Conspiracy Theory... Btw, Forge, thanks for sticking up for me while I was thinking about what I should put in my one post. Edited by: UppyII at: 4/20/03 7:02:16 am
KeenRush Garg Posts: 3168 (4/20/03 7:16 am) 81.209.123.166 Reply \| Edit \| Del	:) This is crazy! Are you Shadow, or not?! Greetings from Bloogton Tower!
KeenEmpire Keen's Empire Posts: 566 (4/20/03 8:50 am) 203.151.38.3 Reply \| Edit \| Del	A scary movie Very nice. Unfortunately, under the circumstances, very stupid. You've just pissed off at least one moderator there through a direct assault, used sarcasm on a manner that you're apparently considering to be very serious (and resultingly, never once in your post actually admitted that you weren't Shadow), attempted to give orders to someone who could legally have to banned for no reason and no actual announcement; and if you don't get the support of at least one moderator here (and it's fortunate that Cho'gall is pretty liberal; however that is still a matter of opinion) you're basically up in the toes for a long ban. (As a side note, Never take me seriously ) Alpha, Alpha, before with shouts of W00t! Hornets flew there; the light upon the silver Staff Suit, Fell like black rain upon the bases of the squads of old, Oh proud Walls, oh shooting turrets, oh unblocked road for all the bold! Alpha, Alpha, will infs behold the silver suit, Or bubblegum blow again with cries of happy W00t?
eK Isonian Posts: 1144 (4/20/03 1:48 pm) 143.109.91.236 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: A scary movie Ever heard of Occam's razor? The simplest explination is the most likely one. Who hear shares an ip with someone else who isn't an admitted friend or family memeber? Look at the size of our community, we're miniscule. There are no duplicate ids here unless one person came here and said to their friend or family memeber "Hey, look, there's actually a bunch of people into this game out there". A bunch being 300, which, when it comes to a game's following, our community is pathetically small. We're scattered around the globe. Look at probabilty. You reach into a box of 6 billion balls with 10 million different colors and you pull out 300. What are the chances of two being the same color? You seem to have absolutely no grasp on logic -- or probability for that matter. That's about all in that crazy babble I'm going to respond to.
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 1341 (4/20/03 5:03 pm) 212.92.76.33 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: A scary movie Mhhh I agree with KeenEmpire that this is only getting worse. Can't you two (Uppy, eK) just not shake hands. I don't mean to apologize if that's not possible but a least not make this a war. This can only end in the ban of Uppy which I will regret -----Djaser est un nation prétendue neutre mais, dans la réalité, il ne l'est pas car il n'arrête pas d'être envahie par les uns et sauvés par les autres. Djaser est normalement régie par une féodalité...-----
eK Isonian Posts: 1145 (4/20/03 7:05 pm) 143.109.91.236 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: A scary movie This is not, and never has been a personal matter.
Forge315 Grand Intellect Posts: 1415 (4/20/03 7:10 pm) 68.106.137.215 Reply \| Edit \| Del	. KeenEmpire, Uppy’s, attitude in the above post is understandable, both his and eK’s, attitude is understandable. They both have justification and reason for their actions. It definitely is not advised to jeer and take lightly any kind of authority, but there is nothing we can do, and I do not think they would ban anybody for an instance of sarcasm. Uppy is not trying to undermine them, he is only standing for himself and that is right IMO. *Quote:* Uppy: I laughed. Laughed at the ridiculousness of the idea He may have answered the big or stupid question here, since he did not take it seriously how could he if it was not true. Though if he is Shadow he should say so, and say so now; since if he is Shadow too and has acted so he may deserve a warning ban. It is important for us to act rightly even if those around us do not. *Quote:* Ever heard of Occam's razor? The simplest explination is the most likely one. It is a yes or no question, improbability has nothing to do with it; that’s why they say when you have illuminated all possibilities the end solution no matter how improbable is the correct one. Not all possibilities have been illuminated yet, despite statistics; this is why we have certain freedoms, like the freedom of due process. *Quote:* Btw, Forge, thanks for sticking up for me while I was thinking about what I should put in my one post. No problem, but do not let it go to your head. You, or Shadow, and you, are the only ones who can clear this matter up. I only try to do the best that I can for any given situation. *Quote:* Mhhh I agree with KeenEmpire that this is only getting worse. Can't you two (Uppy, eK) just not shake hands. I don't mean to apologize if that's not possible but a least not make this a war. This can only end in the ban of Uppy which I will regret It is not war, nor could it be, that is one of the reasons we have administrators; a governing force that has the power to disable and stop disputes at the forum. This is the heart of the Keen Community and so long as it stays fairly well then all will be all right. Eh, noticed eK’s above post, he agrees too.
eK Isonian Posts: 1146 (4/20/03 7:52 pm) 143.109.91.236 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow Uppy will no longer have the probation status, but we will be keeping an eye on him for a while. If he pulls another stunt... well, we'll deal with it when/if we get there.
UppyII Vortininja Posts: 313 (4/21/03 3:53 am) 206.63.170.64 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow *Quote:* There is another thing, which ironically relates to the social contract that Uppy keeps rejecting. KeenEmpire, what do you mean by this? Social contract that I keep rejecting? *Quote:* and resultingly, never once in your post actually admitted that you weren't Shadow -KeenEmpire In a way I did. *Quote:* No problem, but do not let it go to your head. You, or Shadow, and you, are the only ones who can clear this matter up. -Forge Speaking of which, has anyone even contacted Shadow yet? Edit: vvv below vvv *Quote:* Are you Shadow, or not?! -KeenRush No, I am not. Thank you for asking. *Quote:* never once in your post actually admitted that you weren't Shadow -KeenEmpire A little more on this. <Uppy> Eh, making assumptions... <eK-is_cool> I don't see why you do [edit] like this <eK-is_cool> yes, I'm assuming you're guilty because you haven't made a case otherwise The purpose of my post was to make 'a case otherwise.' *Quote:* It definitely is not advised to jeer and take lightly any kind of authority, -Forge Believe me, I have not taken it lightly. *Quote:* Uppy is not trying to undermine them, -Forge Definitely not! I really hope that nobody has been thinking this. *Quote:* You, or Shadow, and you, are the only ones who can clear this matter up. -Forge I'm working on it. Edited by: UppyII at: 4/21/03 6:27:24 am
KeenEmpire Keen's Empire Posts: 567 (4/21/03 10:26 am) 203.151.38.3 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow Noh-uh. It has to do with the truth complexes of certain people: to decieve, but never lie. Without a direct denial of the subject (which Uppy has now given) he would raise my doubts by implying certain things, yet trying to dodge the subject. No personal feelings. (Ok, ok, one of these "certain people" is me. I might be suspicious for that very reason.) *Quote:* Definitely not! I really hope that nobody has been thinking this. Yeah, I was. It figures. *Quote:* KeenEmpire, what do you mean by this? Social contract that I keep rejecting? Nm, it'll take too long to explain. --- The most important reason for this post: has Shadow's membership been "unrevoked" yet? Alpha, Alpha, before with shouts of W00t! Hornets flew there; the light upon the silver Staff Suit, Fell like black rain upon the bases of the squads of old, Oh proud Walls, oh shooting turrets, oh unblocked road for all the bold! Alpha, Alpha, will infs behold the silver suit, Or bubblegum blow again with cries of happy W00t?
eK Isonian Posts: 1147 (4/21/03 3:26 pm) 143.109.91.236 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow We don't want to see any more incarnations of Uppy's shadow around here. So no.
UppyII Vortininja Posts: 314 (4/21/03 4:54 pm) 206.63.170.44 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow An e-mail from Shadow to me: Hey Andy, Thanks for asking, nobody else was talking to me. Okay, first of all I can't use my old account for some reason. (Which really hacks me off because I had almost 30 posts) So I made a new account as; shadow2fear, and I got banned after I made a request to see if it was legal! Before I found out I was banned, I tried to open the page with my request for advice and found that it was most likely deleted! Crazy, I know, but true! Then I got a message from 'flaose', calling me 'adam' and telling me not to 'lurk aound again'. I then asked for help from 'chogall' and 'ek'. 'Ek' didn't answer me and 'chogall' said that I wasn't banned and that the 'UppyII' account was still open. How am I supposed to use your account?! What's going on, anyway? signed, Ryan <------<<<
Flaose Pooper, King of the Slugs Posts: 964 (4/21/03 7:51 pm) 68.147.124.200 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow *Quote:* Originally Posted by: UppyII Then I got a message from 'flaose', calling me 'adam' and telling me not to 'lurk aound again'. I then asked for help from 'chogall' and 'ek'. 'Ek' didn't answer me NOTE: I actually meant to say Andy, not Adam, but I got a grand total of four hours of sleep the night I wrote the e-mail, and screwed up. Anyways... Why didn't Shadow ask Thea for help? He's supposed to be new here...he shouldn't have any idea that she doesn't usually come around, especially since she posted no more than three days ago. It seems you've been caught in your own snares... 'Oh! what a tangled web we weave / When first we practice to deceive!' - Marmion 6.17.27-28 -------------------- Cerebral Cortex 314 - For All of your Commander Keen Needs.
John Vortininja Posts: 187 (4/21/03 9:47 pm) 164.47.220.32 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow Hey...since it's turning into such a big deal, why not go ahead and clear it up decisively? Say...get in contact with the ISP. Since this is an important case, the ISP should be willing to help clear things up if contacted by an administrator, since if Uppy and Shadow are the same, it could be construed as abusive use of the internet account. Or if it's of small enough consequence that no one of power would take decisive action to get clear proof, then just let Shadow/Ryan back on. John, a.k.a. Twilight Dragon joeubank@hotmail.com jworld.g2gm.com
eK Isonian Posts: 1148 (4/21/03 10:15 pm) 143.109.91.236 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow I did not recieve an email.
UppyII Vorticon Elite Posts: 315 (4/22/03 2:32 am) 206.63.170.48 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow *Quote:* Anyways... Why didn't Shadow ask Thea for help? I'll ask him. *Quote:* 'Oh! what a tangled web we weave / When first we practice to deceive!' - Marmion 6.17.27-28 "Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to believe." -Laurence J. Peter (1919 - 1988) "Begin challenging your own assumptions. Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in awhile, or the light won't come in." -Alan Alda *Quote:* he shouldn't have any idea that she doesn't usually come around, especially since she posted no more than three days ago. Come on, Flaose, use that brain of your's. What's the one advantage he had over every other newbie here? Look, I have no idea as to why he has/had the same ip as me. I do know, though, that he does have access to a workstation that has the same isp as me. Edited by: UppyII at: 4/22/03 2:37:15 am
eK Isonian Posts: 1150 (4/22/03 2:35 am) 143.109.91.236 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow *Quote:* Come on, Flaose, use that brain of your's. What's the one advantage he had over every other newbie here? he's you?
UppyII Vorticon Elite Posts: 316 (4/22/03 2:43 am) 206.63.170.48 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow Oh, come on. I denied it, and still do. Edit: vvv below vvv Shadow's answer: I have heard that 'thea' doesn't play too much of a role on the Commander Keen Forum. Besides, how many admins. should it take to run a forum? (no offence meant). Does this answer everyones' questions? signed, shadow2fear <------<<< Edited by: UppyII at: 4/22/03 3:28:40 am
Flaose Pooper, King of the Slugs Posts: 966 (4/22/03 7:06 pm) 68.147.124.200 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow Perhaps Shadow should reply for himself. Or is it too hard to find a computer with a different ISP. -------------------- Cerebral Cortex 314 - For All of your Commander Keen Needs.
Grelphy Vortininja Posts: 255 (4/22/03 7:31 pm) 12.23.198.254 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow A couple of comments. I think that it would really stink if I were to be banned/otherwise limited in my posting because of something someone else did. I'm sure everyone else would agree. If somebody from my hometown were to register an account using the same ip as me, and promptly get banned and put some of the blame on me, I would be quite mad. Keep in mind, if "ip" means "ISP" (I'm not quite sure), there may be many people in this community using it. And, keep in mind, Spokane Washington is hardly a small town. In my town which has <1000 people, there are at least three keen fans (including me) one of which is in a different household. (to my knowledge, I'm the only one with an account here.) Shouldn't Uppy and/or Shadow get the benefit of the doubt? And, if ip does not mean "ISP", what does it mean? You and all those other mental wimps deserve to die! -Mortimer Mcmire in Commander Keen 3
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 1368 (4/22/03 7:34 pm) 212.92.76.33 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow Or..... (yep Djaser has a doomed idea) should you unban Shadow because..... so he and Uppy both upload an avater so you can be sure they post form their own comp. And as a test that they are different person they should post on the same time. Well what do you think..... stupid idea again heh -----Djaser est un nation prétendue neutre mais, dans la réalité, il ne l'est pas car il n'arrête pas d'être envahie par les uns et sauvés par les autres. Djaser est normalement régie par une féodalité...-----
Flaose Pooper, King of the Slugs Posts: 972 (4/22/03 7:39 pm) 68.147.124.200 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow Shadow isn't banned. Uppy's IP was banned for a day or so, wherin it was hoped that things could be sorted out between the admins. *Quote:* Originally Posted by: UppyII Come on, Flaose, use that brain of your's. What's the one advantage he had over every other newbie here? If he's not you, then he's someone you know...schoolmate or family member. Please enlighten me. -------------------- Cerebral Cortex 314 - For All of your Commander Keen Needs.
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 1369 (4/22/03 7:45 pm) 212.92.76.33 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow = but I don't say a word -----Djaser est un nation prétendue neutre mais, dans la réalité, il ne l'est pas car il n'arrête pas d'être envahie par les uns et sauvés par les autres. Djaser est normalement régie par une féodalité...-----
UppyII Vorticon Elite Posts: 318 (4/22/03 8:48 pm) 206.63.170.35 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow *Quote:* If he's not you, then he's someone you know...schoolmate Bingo. *Quote:* Shadow isn't banned. Tue, 22 Apr 2003 Hey, I can view as a guest but I can't use my membership. See if you can fix that with the admins. Ask eK what it would take for him to believe you. If I could post in my own defense I would. Man, why does this happen after I join?! shadow2fear <------<<< Edited by: UppyII at: 4/22/03 8:49:45 pm
Forge315 Grand Intellect Posts: 1423 (4/22/03 8:58 pm) 150.176.82.150 Reply \| Edit \| Del	. IP = Internet protocol ISP = Internet service provider You connect to the Internet through your ISP, they give you your IP, which is a number that you use to communicate information between yourself and other computers on the Internet.
chogall Vorticon Elder Posts: 1305 (4/22/03 9:50 pm) 148.122.154.221 Reply \| Edit \| Del ezSupporter	Re: Uppy and Shadow I've checked the logs, and Shadow and Uppy both have a very distinctive pattern of switching between two different ISPs, one of which has a very limited target customer base. It is possible that two people use the same ISP, but when "they" both seem to have contracts with two different ISPs which are not mainstream, it's impossible that "they" are two different persons. Except, of course, if it's two people living together with the same workplace or school, but in that case those people would know about each other. "Shadow" has claimed that he does not know Uppy at all. I noticed this case when I got back from my holiday, and did an unbiased check of the IP logs. Of course Uppy gets the benefit of the doubt, but with the identical IP/ISP pattern and the fact that "Shadow" knows a lot more than what a complete newcomer would do, there is no doubt. Uppy is not getting banned, but on this message board we like people to be honest about who they are.
UppyII Vorticon Elite Posts: 319 (4/23/03 4:25 am) 206.63.170.74 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow *Quote:* It is possible that two people use the same ISP Very. In fact, we do. *Quote:* but when "they" both seem to have contracts with two different ISPs which are not mainstream, it's impossible that "they" are two different persons. I don't see how that proves that we are not two people. It's impossible for us to have two ISPs? However impossible it may seem to you, it's a possibility in the real world. *Quote:* "Shadow" has claimed that he does not know Uppy at all. Did he really,[ edited by me ] *Quote:* and the fact that "Shadow" knows a lot more than what a complete newcomer would do, there is no doubt. Come on, Cho'gall, use that brain of your's. What's the one advantage Shadow had over every other newbie here? *Quote:* Uppy is not getting banned, but on this message board we like people to be honest about who they are. I'm Uppy. I'm not Shadow and I'm not a liar. Edited by: UppyII at: 4/23/03 2:10:06 pm
eK Isonian Posts: 1152 (4/23/03 5:12 am) 143.109.91.236 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow Uppy, if you keep up these inflammatory posts you WILL be banned. We're not joking around here. You're walking a thin line as it is. Why make it thinner? I've told you this in #keeners, but you don't seem to get it. This is the last time I'm going to tell you.
adurdin Wormouth Posts: 734 (4/23/03 7:39 am) 61.9.128.173 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow I'm jumping into this a little late, but I thought I'd pick up on something that might need clarification: *Quote:* 4.) Pretend to be anyone other than yourself (i.e. a moderator or an administrator). To me, this rule sounds like it is concerned with pretending to be another forum user, and especially pretending to have authority that you lack (hence the explicit mention of pretending to be a mod or admin). I would suggest that if using multiple nicknames is frowned upon, then it should be explicitly mentioned in the rules, so as to clarify the position in future. As far as sharing two ISPs goes, that is not at all impossible: if they both lived in the same town, and went to the same school, it is quite reasonable to suppose that their families could both subscribe to the same ISP at home, especially if it was a local ISP. Uppy has several times denied that he is Shadow; why not take him at his word? Without more definite evidence, I would not think it justified to take action against him. I was not aware that Shadow was behaving in ways that went against the forum's rules, and as such the account should not have been deleted so peremptorily. Andrew
KeenEmpire Keen's Empire Posts: 568 (4/23/03 12:00 pm) 203.151.38.3 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow *Quote:* Did he really, or is that just another lie from an admin? Uppy, I think you should clarify your relationship with Shadow. In fact, please do. A request for such a clarification has already been made by Flaose ("enlighten me"). I do not believe that an admin such as Cho'gall (favoritism+bias, but the best we can hope for) would make such a direct and intentional lie on a subject case as this. Still, I believe that it would be useful if he provided the entire message/mail that was sent by Shadow (unless, of course, it's already deleted :X) so that we could attain at least a few documents on this. Alpha, Alpha, before with shouts of W00t! Hornets flew there; the light upon the silver Staff Suit, Fell like black rain upon the bases of the squads of old, Oh proud Walls, oh shooting turrets, oh unblocked road for all the bold! Alpha, Alpha, will infs behold the silver suit, Or bubblegum blow again with cries of happy W00t?
UppyII Vorticon Elite Posts: 320 (4/23/03 2:33 pm) 206.63.170.56 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow *Quote:* I do not believe that an admin such as Cho'gall (favoritism+bias, but the best we can hope for) would make such a direct and intentional lie on a subject case as this. Actually, I really doubt that he would too. I've already been lied to once, but not by Cho'gall. I do apologize. *Quote:* Uppy, I think you should clarify your relationship with Shadow. He's a friend of mine. Look, I don't know about you guys, but I'm getting really, REALLY sick of all this. Stop trying to find loopholes in my argument, because you will not find one! I have never lied to anyone on this board and I am telling the truth now. I Am Not Shadow nor is Shadow me. Shadow is a friend of mine. You even have this cute little note on the upper left-hand-side of the main page: "Invite Friends!" Ok? Is it ok to invite friends? I do apologize if I've gotten frustrated about this mess and said some things that were just a bit...harsh and uncalled for, but I think it's understandable. I've been 'proven' guilty without a fair trial and been given absolutely no way of proving otherwise. I've been lied to, threatened, put on probation, banned, falsly accused of being Shadow, of being a liar, of being a thief, and I've had my friend deleted once and then banned. And for what? For being me?! He is not me! Well, I'm fed up. I'm sick of this. I'm frustrated. As Flaose so truthfully put it, "This is wearing very thin." It is. Unban Shadow (or shadow2fear, whatever his nick is now) and we can be done with this and go about our peacefull little lives. That is all I have to say. Thank you.
eK Isonian Posts: 1153 (4/23/03 4:18 pm) 143.109.91.236 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow You silly little fool. You'd been asked like 50 times over if Shadow was a friend/family member of yours. I said that Shadow was either you, or a friend/family member of yours at least 3 times, and I know Xtra said it once or twice. If you ask me, you deserve everything you got and more in this incident because never once did you work to smooth things over or just admit that he's a friend. No, you had a battle to fight against "the man" and it's a battle you're still fighting. You may not be guilty, but you are guilty of handling this whole situation as poorly as you possibly could, you insulted ops, you avoided questions, you accused us, for no good reason, of lying. The punishment still stands. Mess up again and you're gone.
Flaose Pooper, King of the Slugs Posts: 973 (4/23/03 10:18 pm) 68.147.124.200 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow Guess what Uppy. This could've all been avoided if, when it was first pointed out that it seemed likely that you and Shadow were the same person, you simply said: 'No, Shadow's not me, he's my friend.' WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU?! WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL US SHADOW WAS JUST YOUR FRIEND?!!! WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU?! WHY DIDN'T YOU SAVE YOUR FRIEND THE FRUSTRATION AND TROUBLE?! WHY DIDN'T YOU SAVE US THE FRUSTRATION AND TROUBLE?! What was your purpose in decieving us like that? *Quote:* Originally Posted by: UppyII Unban Shadow (or shadow2fear, whatever his nick is now) and we can be done with this and go about our peacefull little lives. I will repeat myself: *Quote:* Shadow isn't banned. Uppy's IP was banned for a day or so, wherin it was hoped that things could be sorted out between the admins. Shadow's free to post, he has been since Sunday or so. -------------------- Cerebral Cortex 314 - For All of your Commander Keen Needs.
adurdin Wormouth Posts: 736 (4/23/03 10:33 pm) 61.9.128.173 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow *Quote:* You silly little fool. Are admins allowed to insult members now? (It is an insult, even if it is true; and I think such is totally unacceptable from an admin). *Quote:* You may not be guilty, but you are guilty of handling this whole situation as poorly as you possibly could Frankly, eK, your handling of the situation was quite poor, from what I can see. You yourself admitted that you confronted Uppy (presumably accusing him) before you even had evidence from IP addresses. It sounds very much like you assumed (without much evidence) that Uppy and Shadow were the same person, and then confronted Uppy, rather than presenting the evidence you had and asking him to explain it, in a non-confrontational way (because direct confrontation and accusation is not going to encourage anyone to cooperate nicely, especially if they are innocent).
eK Isonian Posts: 1156 (4/24/03 12:45 am) 143.109.91.236 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow [23:07] <eK-is_cool> I think he's you [23:07] <Uppy> lol [23:07] <Uppy> [23:07] <Uppy> hehe [23:07] <Uppy> You gotta be kidding. [23:08] <eK-is_cool> if not you then a friend/family member of yours [23:08] <Uppy> Why do you say that? [23:09] <eK-is_cool> I have a good amount of evidence [23:09] <eK-is_cool> why don't you just tell me the truth [23:09] <Uppy> And what do you mean by 'his ips are all fake?' [23:09] <eK-is_cool> I can find no information on his ips... [23:10] <eK-is_cool> and he has many different ips [23:10] <Uppy> Don't I have different ones too? [23:10] <eK-is_cool> not really [23:10] <eK-is_cool> not completely different ones [23:11] <Uppy> I know of at least 6 computers I've used on the PCKF. [23:11] <Uppy> Make that 7. [23:11] <eK-is_cool> you're dancing around the issue [23:11] <eK-is_cool> you've done this kind of shit before [23:12] <Uppy> Ah, did you see that sky today? Talk about blue. [23:12] <eK-is_cool> If I don't get the truth, I'm gonna be pissy tomorrow [23:12] <Uppy> And you're withholding information. [23:12] <eK-is_cool> of course, I won't show you all my cards [23:13] <eK-is_cool> I want you to admit it [23:13] <eK-is_cool> or deny it [23:13] <Uppy> How do you get from no information on his ips to you're shadow? [23:13] <eK-is_cool> the ips were icing on the cake [23:14] <Uppy> Show me some meat. [23:14] <eK-is_cool> your behavior give me the strong impression that I'm right [23:14] <eK-is_cool> now to decide what to do about it. [23:14] <Uppy> Impressions can be decieving. [23:15] <Uppy> Decide what to do about what? [23:15] <eK-is_cool> about the whole Shadow/you thing [23:16] <eK-is_cool> It pisses me off when you pull shit like this. [23:16] <Uppy> I'm not going to do anything about it. [23:16] <Uppy> Why would I do this? [23:17] <eK-is_cool> I have no idea [23:17] <eK-is_cool> but you've done it before [23:17] <Uppy> Not on the PCKF. [23:17] <Uppy> I did it in here and a believe I promised not to do it again. [23:18] <eK-is_cool> yah [23:18] <eK-is_cool> but that doesn't mean you're not doing it now [23:18] <Uppy> No, it doesn't. [23:18] <Uppy> You're right. [23:21] <Uppy> Man, I don't see why things like this get you so uptight. [23:22] <eK-is_cool> because you're messing with people [23:23] <eK-is_cool> you're making them (and me) believe a falsehood [23:23] <eK-is_cool> and I don't like that at all [23:24] <eK-is_cool> I don't see why you do shit like this [23:24] <Uppy> Eh, making assumptions... [23:25] <eK-is_cool> yes, I'm assuming you're guilty because you haven't made a case otherwise [23:25] <eK-is_cool> the admins and I are going to talk about this and decide what to do (if anything) [23:25] <Uppy> Innocent till proven guilty. [23:26] <eK-is_cool> you were innocent [23:26] <eK-is_cool> until you came in here and gave me the impression that you're guilty [23:26] <Uppy> You haven't made a case against me. [23:26] <eK-is_cool> I have to Flaose and Cho'gall [23:26] <eK-is_cool> essentially [23:26] <eK-is_cool> to be fair [23:27] <Uppy> I gave you the impression that I'm guilty so that makes me guilty? [23:27] <eK-is_cool> Shadow acts like you, lots of quotes, etc. Shows up and you stop posting (in the evolution thread) [23:27] <eK-is_cool> joins the keen community and immediately goes to that tread above all others [23:27] <Uppy> What, are you going to compare writing styles? [23:28] <eK-is_cool> yes [23:28] <eK-is_cool> he says he's from Spokane in his profile [23:28] <Uppy> And I haven't stopped posting in that thread. [23:28] <Uppy> Heh. [23:28] <eK-is_cool> you'd slowed your posts considerably [23:28] <eK-is_cool> you don't claim to be from Spokane in your profile [23:29] <eK-is_cool> I compared ips... yours are from spokane, his are from no where [23:29] <Uppy> I didn't have as much to post about and school's been keeping me busy. [23:29] <Uppy> Wow. [23:29] <eK-is_cool> it seems convient that both happened at the same time [23:29] <eK-is_cool> akk, bad spelling [23:29] <eK-is_cool> I'm too tired [23:30] <Uppy> That both of what happened at the same time? [23:30] <eK-is_cool> you start posting less [23:30] <eK-is_cool> he shows up [23:31] <Uppy> eK, you're not making any sense. [23:31] <eK-is_cool> um, yes I am [23:31] <eK-is_cool> you're posting as him instead of yourself [23:31] <Uppy> brb - kitty [23:32] <eK-is_cool> well anyway [23:32] <eK-is_cool> I'm going to bed [23:32] <Uppy> Whatever. --- I didn't do anything, even though he acted guilty, until I found them sharing the same ISP. It was then that I took action and put uppy on probation. Uppy has peeved me countless times in #keeners, pulling stunts like the one I poster previously, for instance. When I find him doing the same screwed up stuff here, of course I'd be angry. I behaved as any of the other admins would have if they'd discovered the Uppy/Shadow connection.
adurdin Wormouth Posts: 737 (4/24/03 2:53 am) 61.9.128.173 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow This whole thing has blown up a lot, so I've got one final thing to say. eK, a while back you mentioned Occam's razor. It is not a 'law of logic', but is in many cases applicable. So here I present a dilemma, and ask which of the two options is simpler, and hence more likely: 1. Uppy creates another account (Shadow), and begins using it in discussions, pretending to be another totally different person; however, he sets the location in the profile for Shadow to Spokane, even though he himself is from there. He then uses this account on two different ISPs, presumably at school and at home. Shadow appears to know more than other newbies, because he is really Uppy. When Uppy is confronted about being Shadow, he first evades the question for some time, demanding that the accusers show him their evidence before saying anything. The Shadow account is deleted, so Uppy pretends that Shadow is getting him to post a couple of messages for him. Finally Uppy explicitly denies that he is Shadow, and claims that Shadow is a friend of his. 2.Uppy has a friend, who also likes Commander Keen. Uppy tells this friend about the PCKF a lot, and the friend eventually joins, calling himself Shadow. Shadow already knows something about the PCKF, since Uppy has told him about it. Uppy and Shadow hang out at each others' houses a lot, and so often Shadow accesses the PCKF from Uppy's house, and vice-versa. Uppy is then accused of dissembling and being Shadow himself, and he thinks the idea is ridiculous, so instead of denying it outright, he decides to play with the accuser, and evades the question. After Shadow's account is deleted, Uppy lets him post a couple of messages from his own account, complaining about the deletion. When finally asked outright if he is Shadow, Uppy denies it, and admits that Shadow is a friend of his. I believe the second is more likely, and fits better with what I infer about Uppy's character from his posts.
UppyII Vorticon Elite Posts: 321 (4/24/03 4:31 am) 206.63.170.54 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow *Quote:* You'd been asked like 50 times over if Shadow was a friend/family member of yours. I said that Shadow was either you, or a friend/family member of yours at least 3 times, and I know Xtra said it once or twice. I've been asked twice and I answered twice. I also stated that I knew him and showed you that there were other possibilities other than the one you proposed. *Quote:* If you ask me, you deserve everything you got and more in this incident because never once did you work to smooth things over or just admit that he's a friend. And how was I to 'smooth things over'? Hm? I've done the best job I can and you still don't believe me. First, you ask me to 'make a case other wise.' I did. Then, you ask me to deny it. I did. What else do you want or are you just arguing just for the sake of arguing? 'Fighting the man,' as you put it. *Quote:* No, you had a battle to fight against "the man" and it's a battle you're still fighting. No, I'm fighting a battle against you. *Quote:* You may not be guilty, but you are guilty of handling this whole situation as poorly as you possibly could, That is, of course, in your very own opinion. I handled the situation in a manner which I deemed fitting for such a ridiculous idea. *Quote:* you avoided questions, I answered them, though not directly. You, on the other hand, are the one who avoids questions. Most of the time, you simply dismiss my arguments as 'crazy babble,' or call me a name as if that answers my questions. Or, for example, start talking about colored marbles and probability factors. *Quote:* you accused us, for no good reason, of lying. Wrong. I accused YOU of lying and you did. Seven times, in fact. Session Start: Thu Apr 17 20:37:47 2003 * Now talking in #keeners * Topic is 'download.toriyamaworld.co...-03-07.zip \|\| download.toriyamaworld.co...ru-149.zip ' * Set by eK on Sun Apr 13 20:22:56 * ceilick has joined #keeners <ceilick> hello. <Yorpy> hi ceilick <Uppy> Hello, everyone. <ceilick> hi, uppy. <eK-is_cool> hey uppy <eK-is_cool> you just missed shadow [Lie number 1. Shadow was never in the chat room]<Uppy> Cool. <eK-is_cool> He said hi, among other things [Lie number 2. If he was never here, he obviously didn't say 'hi'] <Uppy> In here? <eK-is_cool> I told him you usually stop by around this time [Lie number 3. If Shadow was never in the room; you couldn't have said this to him] <eK-is_cool> but he had to go [Lie number 4. He was never here therefore he never had to leave] <eK-is_cool> yah [Lie number 5.] <Uppy> Cool. <eK-is_cool> he's been by quite a few times lately [Lie number 6. See comment number 1.] <eK-is_cool> Have you seen him in here before? <Uppy> Does he have IRC? <Uppy> Nope. <eK-is_cool> you mean mirc? <eK-is_cool> no, he used java [Lie number 7.] <Uppy> Oh. <eK-is_cool> apparently he's from the same town as you <Uppy> Spokane? <eK-is_cool> yes <Uppy> Cool. I don't believe that there was any reason to lie there. *Quote:* The punishment still stands. Mess up again and you're gone. The punishment towards Shadow still stands because you're irritated with me? Ok, raise your hand if this makes any sense to anyone here. Btw, Shadow's e-mail is shadow2fear at hotmail dot com *Quote:* Uppy has peeved me countless times in #keeners, pulling stunts like the one I poster previously, for instance. What really gets you peeved is the fact that you seem to be unable to joke around and don't understand when I do. *Quote:* Guess what Uppy. This could've all been avoided if, -Flaose No, I say it couldn't. eK wouldn't have believed me if I told him the truth. Besides, he already 'proved' me to be guilty. It would have been my word against his 'proof.' *Quote:* when it was first pointed out that it seemed likely that you and Shadow were the same person, you simply said: 'No, Shadow's not me, he's my friend.' –Flaose The very first point I made in my defense was that I was not Shadow. I've just been laying down my cards one at a time. You should have believed me when I denied it. *Quote:* Quote: I recently discovered that Uppy and Shadow are likely the same person. -eK As did I. Of course, I wasn't about to show all of my cards at the beginning: '<eK-is_cool> of course, I won't show you all my cards' *Quote:* WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU?! WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL US SHADOW WAS JUST YOUR FRIEND?!!! WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU?! WHY DIDN'T YOU SAVE YOUR FRIEND THE FRUSTRATION AND TROUBLE?! WHY DIDN'T YOU SAVE US THE FRUSTRATION AND TROUBLE?! What was your purpose in decieving us like that? -Flaose Deceiving you? I denied it at the very beginning of my first post! If you're wondering as to why I didn't say so in #keeners, it's because I know from personal experience that arguing with eK in a chat room is a very bad idea. I was expecting an e-mail to be sent to me and I was going to clarify then. Why should I tell you that Shadow is my friend? I said that I wasn't Shadow and my word should have been sufficient. *Quote:* I didn't do anything, even though he acted guilty, -eK Acted guilty. No, that's just how you interpreted it. You shouldn't trust your feelings. <eK-is_cool> it seems convient that both happened at the same time <eK-is_cool> akk, bad spelling <eK-is_cool> I'm too tired <Uppy> That both of what happened at the same time? <eK-is_cool> you start posting less <eK-is_cool> he shows up <Uppy> eK, you're not making any sense. <eK-is_cool> um, yes I am <Uppy> brb - kitty <eK-is_cool> you're posting as him instead of yourself <eK-is_cool> well anyway <eK-is_cool> I'm going to bed <Uppy> Whatever. *** eK-is_cool is now known as eK-sleepu <Uppy> You're basing your accusation on too much emotion and supposed coincidences. <eK-sleepu> on emotion? <eK-sleepu> er... <eK-sleepu> yah... okay... <eK-sleepu> I'm going to bed <Uppy> Irritation, anger, sorrow, spite, gladness, ect. <Uppy> Emotion. <Uppy> Dang, you blame me when it rains... I have certified this post as 'trolling free'. Edited by: UppyII at: 4/29/03 7:58:10 pm
ShadowIII Meep Posts: 1 (4/25/03 3:31 pm) 152.163.189.71 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow Finally I can post in my own defense. I feel like the Count of Monte Christo....Who's life should I ruin in revenge? Muahahahaha! Just kidding, seriously now... "If you tell a lie long enough and hard enough the people will believe it"-Adolph Hitler This whole uppy doubling as me thing, was a lie although an unintentional one. I don't have any hard feelings towards any of the administrators. I am glad that this whole, pathetic mess is over. I thank the people who gave us "the benfit of the doubt", as grelphy put it. I also advise the admins. to either take down that sign out front which says: "Invite your friends!" , or to talk things out more before deleting peoples' accounts and putting people on probation. (no dissrespect meant). I must say one thing though. It is incredibly frustrating when you get banned for no reason and everybody starts calling you somone else. That's all I have to say now.
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 1375 (4/25/03 4:51 pm) 212.92.76.33 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow Some people here made fools of theirself . I want to remember youthat Uppy has not responsibilies to you about his personal life. That he has a friend Shadow who is another board member are his bussines. Flaose I remember you once said that you would be angry if another forum user would phone you. Can you imagine that this feels the same fur Uppy. *Quote:* This is not, and never has been a personal matter. uh oh I don't believe you eK but why not? Because I really doubt if you would have checked another member IP who acted the same like (example) Xtravers or Keenempire. And why making such a mess about Shadow. Even when he is Uppy is this worth this row. I suggest you close/delete this topic for your own good. -----Djaser est un nation prétendue neutre mais, dans la réalité, il ne l'est pas car il n'arrête pas d'être envahie par les uns et sauvés par les autres. Djaser est normalement régie par une féodalité...----- Edited by: Djaser at: 4/25/03 6:51:11 pm
Flaose Pooper, King of the Slugs Posts: 976 (4/25/03 11:04 pm) 68.147.124.200 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow *Quote:* Originally Posted by: Djaser Flaose I remember you once said that you would be angry if another forum user would phone you. Can you imagine that this feels the same fur Uppy. I'm not sure what my thoughts about members phoning me, and the Shadow and Uppy incident have to do with each other. Could you explain this? *Quote:* Originally Posted by: Djaser Even when he is Uppy is this worth this row. Sorry...I have no idea what this sentance was supposed to mean either. -------------------- Cerebral Cortex 314 - For All of your Commander Keen Needs.
Xtraverse Stranded Fish Posts: 2064 (4/26/03 6:24 pm) 205.188.209.7 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow How am I like KeenEmpire? They can check IPs all they want, but considering he and I live on opposite sides of the earth, I doubt you'll find any similarities.
baabis Gannalech Posts: 182 (4/26/03 6:47 pm) 62.78.239.196 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow *Quote:* [Lie number 1. Shadow was never in the chat room] How do you know that? The board is a mirror of the mind of the players as the moments pass. When a master studies the record of a game he can tell at what point greed overtook the pupil, when he became tired, when he fell into stupidity, and when the maid came by with tea.
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 1385 (4/26/03 7:41 pm) 212.92.76.33 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow *Quote:* How am I like KeenEmpire? They can check IPs all they want, but considering he and I live on opposite sides of the earth, I doubt you'll find any similarities. 1. It was just an example 2. You didn't understant the example :P *Quote:* How do you know that? Because he could ask him. Didn't het tell us Shadow is one of his presonal friends. -----Djaser est un nation prétendue neutre mais, dans la réalité, il ne l'est pas car il n'arrête pas d'être envahie par les uns et sauvés par les autres. Djaser est normalement régie par une féodalité...-----
Flaose Pooper, King of the Slugs Posts: 987 (4/26/03 7:55 pm) 68.147.124.200 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow Now if eK thought Uppy was Shadow, why would he tell a lie like that? -------------------- Cerebral Cortex 314 - For All of your Commander Keen Needs.
UppyII Vorticon Elite Posts: 324 (4/26/03 7:56 pm) 206.63.170.69 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow I heard that directly from Shadow.
Xtraverse Stranded Fish Posts: 2068 (4/26/03 8:21 pm) 172.136.182.204 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow Yes, but how am I like KeenEmpire? I'm just wondering.
UppyII Vorticon Elite Posts: 325 (4/27/03 1:57 am) 206.63.170.42 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow *Quote:* Now if eK thought Uppy was Shadow, why would he tell a lie like that? Dunno for sure, but maybe to extract information?
KeenEmpire Keen's Empire Posts: 570 (4/27/03 6:30 am) 203.151.38.3 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow Maybe sarcasm, though I wouldn't reccomend it. Alpha, Alpha, before with shouts of W00t! Hornets flew there; the light upon the silver Staff Suit, Fell like black rain upon the bases of the squads of old, Oh proud Walls, oh shooting turrets, oh unblocked road for all the bold! Alpha, Alpha, will infs behold the silver suit, Or bubblegum blow again with cries of happy W00t?
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 1386 (4/27/03 11:17 am) 212.92.76.33 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uppy and Shadow *Quote:* Yes, but how am I like KeenEmpire? I'm just wondering. No,no I didn't say that. I tooke you two as an example. -----Djaser est un nation prétendue neutre mais, dans la réalité, il ne l'est pas car il n'arrête pas d'être envahie par les uns et sauvés par les autres. Djaser est normalement régie par une féodalité...-----

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