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Flaose The Vagrant Posts: 1396 (2/11/04 2:40 am) 68.147.109.142 Reply \| Edit \| Del All	The Nature of God Being stimulated by the other debate topic, I decided to start my own. Simply put, what kind of god do you believe in? No God? A formless God? A God with physical form? A more pragmatic version of God? I'm really interested in your ideas and thoughts. -------------------- Cerebral Cortex 314 - For All of your Commander Keen Needs. Eat at Joes
Xtraverse Stranded Fish Posts: 2749 (2/11/04 3:06 am) 69.162.175.74 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The Nature of God Unfortunately, I don't believe in a God. One beef I have with Christianity is that I think a God would not be humanlike, but something for more complex and beyond our comprehension. Another thing, I don't see why a loving and caring God, as the Christian God is made out to be, would condemn someone to everlasting torture and misery (hell) for simply not believing in him. It's only slightly more logical what Catholic Christians believe, condemning only the evil. Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you on experience -- Mark Twain spatang.com
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 2326 (2/11/04 9:38 am) 212.178.7.54 Reply \| Edit \| Del	f If there is a God it would be a thing like Xtraverse described: *Quote:* I think a God would not be humanlike, but something for more complex and beyond our comprehension. I don't consider myself as very religious but I am pretty interessted in other people views about it.
JosephBurke Tres-tria quindecim Posts: 273 (2/11/04 10:11 am) 68.106.139.158 Reply \| Edit \| Del	God and our choice. Occasionally I change my philosophical stance on such things, here is my current belief. If you don't understand me, that would be typical. Eh. The nature of God is to love, but not with fear and hate, instead truth and justice. Also, I don't have problem thinking about judgement because I consider all men equal in evil, no matter their deeds. One man rapes and kills while another becomes a preacher and fears God, their equal in my eyes. I'll explain. Man not being perfect like God can only choose to do a thing out of fear or hate of something, while God still being pure does things because of truth and justice. It is because of the nature behind the deeds of man that he is condemned; because of this all sins are equally vile and profane. Please note, that the difference between God's love and our love, is the nature of that love; ours has become impure while His remains perfect. The distinctive point that allows us to be saved is choice; black or white, left or right, we can still choose things for ourselves which allows us to accept God's forgiveness.
Xtraverse Stranded Fish Posts: 2751 (2/11/04 5:19 pm) 64.30.37.14 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: God and our choice. What is one to do if they do not believe in God? You can't exactly force yourself to believe in Him. Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you on experience -- Mark Twain spatang.com
JosephBurke Tres-tria quindecim Posts: 275 (2/11/04 7:24 pm) 68.106.139.158 Reply \| Edit \| Del	faith manifests If they do not believe in God than the existence of hell or God should not be bothersome. And who would force anybody to believe anything, yourself is the only thing you have in opposition; each person has enough faith to accept what I would call the truth, their only opposition is themselves. I will explain about this enough faith. Being dubious and doubtful is no different an act in faith than praying to god, because through that you have already given rise to other possibilities. This proves (within reason) the existence of faith in each person, because from one instance to the next man will never know everything and has to carry at least some faith. By questioning things and thinking man is recognizing and using faith. That seems confusing, hope it made sense.
KeenRush Photachyon Transceiver Posts: 5041 (2/11/04 8:53 pm) 212.246.17.130 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Ah.. Good topic idea! I'm interested to see what you others believe/think, and this is a topic/subject I have thought a lot. Anyways.. This is also pretty hard. These are things not so easy to think about. Even if I think eternity too much at one time I feel like running somewhere and scream.. And sometimes even do that. Well, I believe in the God of Christianity. It isn't said anywhere that God is like human, and those pictures of God as some old man walking in garden are just artistic impressions or how do ya call them.. Some think that everything's "set" before, and things go exactly as God planned them. This stuff is something that we probably will not get answers, at least in this finite (=starting and ending) life. I have thought this often, but I think that even if and probably He knows how our lives will go, we can affect on them and decide and so on. Knowing something is different than making something happen. I think God is best, all-knowing, all-seeing, the most wise, amazing, infinite love and good, etc., can't tell with words.. I think God is "personal" or how do you say it, like that He has a plan, when the world was made He saw it was good and he liked and hopefully still likes it, and so on. God ins't bounded to any laws, forces, or anything. He can decide about everything, INF% free. I think that includes that He could make himself not perfect, bound to some rules or whatever. Everything is possible. And the one thing is sure, we can't understand or explain almost anything about Him, we just aren't capable (unless God changes us). And thing I always say when talking about this kind of things: what is any human to judge God or anything, we can't say "how perfect and loving God would let....".. Or, the most annoying I think is when people think God using "science" or "logic" and doing theories about that why God isn't or must exist or something.. This stuff is so complex.. And always when I'm writing something post like this I forget what I had in mind to add. Well, I will post more later. "What is one to do if they do not believe in God?" Well, nothing then. Everyone was being given free will. That's quite a gift, and brings you a lot responsibility. Life's kinda test. But I think it's also meant to be good and fun, at least for some persons. Some are tested harder than others, probably. And so on. But you gotta decide where you want to end up, before it's too late.. I think everyone has possibility to save, you just need to believe and do right. "For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all that they could, they began to modify." 3001: The final Odyssey
Xtraverse Stranded Fish Posts: 2752 (2/11/04 11:21 pm) 69.162.175.74 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Ah.. *Quote:* It isn't said anywhere that God is like human, and those pictures of God as some old man walking in garden are just artistic impressions or how do ya call them.. Genesis 1: 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 5: 1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. 3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth: 4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: 5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. Genesis 9: 6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. James 3: 8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. 9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you on experience -- Mark Twain spatang.com
JosephBurke Tres-tria quindecim Posts: 279 (2/11/04 11:37 pm) 68.106.139.158 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Torah of Yahshua For all those Christians out there or those who know a lot about Christian type religions, this page is a good read. www.torahofmessiah.com/faq.html It's what he calls the FAQ; which in this case stands for Frequently Avoided Questions. Feel free to explore the rest of the page there's a lot of good articles.
Flaose The Vagrant Posts: 1398 (2/12/04 2:55 am) 68.147.109.142 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Torah of Yahshua I've never understood how Christians could believe in "The Holy Trinity" (that is, God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost/Spirit are three "manifestations" of one being), the Holy Bible simply doesn't support such a belief. -------------------- Cerebral Cortex 314 - For All of your Commander Keen Needs. Eat at Joes
KeenRush Photachyon Transceiver Posts: 5046 (2/12/04 5:27 am) 212.246.17.130 Reply \| Edit \| Del	-- I know those xtra, but I don't think they mean the physical form or something. I always have thought them meaning thinks like free will, thinking, ability to love, sympathy etc.. "For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all that they could, they began to modify." 3001: The final Odyssey
Br1ck Grunt Posts: 36 (2/12/04 6:14 am) 64.24.114.124 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Torah of Yahshua God? I thought I was god... I'm guessing a theologian could point out where the Bible supports a trinity, Flaose. On the other hand, they can make the Bible say anything they want...
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 2331 (2/12/04 7:20 am) 212.92.76.33 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The Nature of God *Quote:* God? I thought I was god... You could tell us about your nature. *Quote:* I've never understood how Christians could believe in "The Holy Trinity" (that is, God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost/Spirit are three "manifestations" of one being), the Holy Bible simply doesn't support such a belief. Jesus makes a few times clear that he and the father are the same. How could it be different if there is only one God? ----------------- Download free games on The Dos Vault!!! The Dos Vault forum, guest posting allowed.
Ilsoap Flect Posts: 889 (2/12/04 8:22 am) 24.67.253.204 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The Nature of God Ugh. The paradox. On one hand, this is a great topic and a vital question that needs to be answered. On the other hand, I never come to the miscellaneous forum enough to answer any replies people have to what I say, so I really shouldn't contribute (since it's unfair to give your 2 cents without listening to everyone else's). That said, I'll just reply to the Trinity question. In addition to the examples of Jesus claiming to be God (and really, based on the things he does, it's obvious that he believed he was God), there's other examples of why God is a Trinity. My favorite is an argument I first read in a C.S. Lewis book called "Mere Christianity". Everyone should read at least the first few chapters, it's very interesting. Anyways, his argument is this: Fact 1: God is love. Fact 2: Love can not exist in a universe where there is only one person. Loving yourself isn't truly love. Love has to be a bond between two people. Conclusion: If God (and love) has been around since before time started, there must be more to God than a single person. His analogy for it is God the Father loves God the Son, God the Son loves God the Father, and the love between them is the Holy Spirit. Now, that's his argument, not mine (although I see nothing wrong with his logic). As for the confusion of how God could be three AND one, nature has many examples for that, too. H2O is a good one, as it can be water, ice, and steam, and yet still have the same chemical make-up. http://www.screenhog.com/
KeenEmpire Keen's Empire Posts: 677 (2/12/04 1:21 pm) 203.151.38.3 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The Nature of God *Quote:* Man not being perfect like God can only choose to do a thing out of fear or hate of something For some reason, imperfection leading to such disability sounds to me like a huge leap. *Quote:* Just remember that this is the year of the elite devil. 1337 + 666 = 2003
KeenRush Photachyon Transceiver Posts: 5049 (2/12/04 2:12 pm) 212.246.17.130 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The Nature of God Well, great post Ilsoap (once again). I should read that book.. Anyways, when thinking that how God can be one and three, I don't even try to think something to relate it, I've always thought it as it's the world's/everything's only thing that is so. By the way, has anyone seen that four-part-tv-series Second Coming? Quite scary thing.. "For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all that they could, they began to modify." 3001: The final Odyssey
Flaose The Vagrant Posts: 1399 (2/12/04 2:35 pm) 68.147.109.142 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The Nature of God *Quote:* Originally Posted by: Djaser Jesus makes a few times clear that he and the father are the same. How could it be different if there is only one God? But couldn't he just be using a figure of speech? Saying they are One because they are acting on a single purpose in perfect harmony with each other? *Quote:* Originally Posted by: Ilsoap As for the confusion of how God could be three AND one, nature has many examples for that, too. H2O is a good one, as it can be water, ice, and steam, and yet still have the same chemical make-up. So are you saying that you believe that the Holy Trinity are three “states” of one person, or two people with perfect love (as C.S. Lewis was saying)? -------------------- Cerebral Cortex 314 - For All of your Commander Keen Needs. Eat at Joes
Xtraverse Stranded Fish Posts: 2754 (2/12/04 3:38 pm) 64.30.37.14 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The Nature of God *Quote:* I always have thought them meaning thinks like free will, thinking, ability to love, sympathy etc.. KeenRush, that is EXACTLY what I mean be being like humans. I think that a God would be more complex. Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you on experience -- Mark Twain spatang.com
KeenRush Photachyon Transceiver Posts: 5050 (2/12/04 4:56 pm) 212.246.17.130 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The Nature of God I hope I said it correctly, but I meant that God is all those (and a lot more) things and making human to his image or whatever means giving human those things.. And why more complex? "For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all that they could, they began to modify." 3001: The final Odyssey
JosephBurke Tres-tria quindecim Posts: 280 (2/12/04 7:16 pm) 68.106.139.158 Reply \| Edit \| Del	words and more words I didn't expect you people to take that page seriously; they are just good articles to read so that you can understand things from a different perspective. I posted it as a joke since most Christians aren't able to answer those questions reasonably. *Quote:* For some reason, imperfection leading to such disability sounds to me like a huge leap. I think it's a huge leap too, however unlike me you're disagreeing with it. For this reason, it would be best if you offer an argument or ask for clarification on some point or better yet give your own view on such things.
Ilsoap Flect Posts: 890 (2/12/04 7:55 pm) 24.67.253.204 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: words and more words *Quote:* So are you saying that you believe that the Holy Trinity are three “states” of one person, or two people with perfect love (as C.S. Lewis was saying) Well, I'm a little undecided about that, to be honest. Of course, it doesn't really matter what I think, God knows who he is. :P C.S. Lewis' proposal makes a lot of sense, though. I've often asked myself "If God's a Trinity, what were Jesus and the Holy Spirit doing in the Old Testament? Where do they show up?". If the Holy Spirit is the third person that exists out of the love between the father and son, it makes sense since it was the Spirit that was guiding the Israelites through the desert as a cloud, an ultimate protection as long as the Israelites accepted him. It also gives Jesus a role during the Old Testament, and makes his sacrifice in the New Testament a lot more amazing (at least to me). http://www.screenhog.com/
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1413 (2/13/04 6:57 am) 203.26.24.216 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: words and more words *Quote:* I've never understood how Christians could believe in "The Holy Trinity" (that is, God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost/Spirit are three "manifestations" of one being), the Holy Bible simply doesn't support such a belief. Me either. In Islam, we believe that a guy named Joseph midled the christians (and that christianity was a name made up by an idol worshiper) and made up a load of mambo jumbo to the christians after Jesus left the Earth and returned to God. I've also read that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the U.S with over 5 million muslims in the U.S. Excellent! Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
Yorpy rar! Posts: 47 (2/13/04 7:29 am) 216.244.19.64 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The Nature of God I don't believe in a god. The idea that an all-loving all-knowing being somewhere that I've never seen or talked to cares about me and has a "plan" for me is not something I believe in.
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 2335 (2/13/04 1:26 pm) 212.92.76.33 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The Nature of God *Quote:* I've also read that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the U.S with over 5 million muslims in the U.S. Excellent! Of course it is the fastest growing relegion in western countries it's new there. Back to the nature of God: Have you guys already thought about God and good and evil? Is God good and the devil evil and is there in fact a sort of dualisme between the two powers? Or does God say what is evil and what good and we have to listen to that. What's your opinion about this. ----------------- Download free games on The Dos Vault!!! The Dos Vault forum, guest posting allowed.
KeenRush Photachyon Transceiver Posts: 5056 (2/13/04 4:00 pm) 212.246.17.130 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The Nature of God Sorry to hear that Yorpy.... Ah.. I have often heard non-believers saying "how can perfect and good God let everything bad happen" and "God must be also evil because there is evil".. Well, first of all, we can't say what is good or not, what is perfect, what is good or evil. God defines those, and we should be glad with that. And I'll say once again: we can not understand why, how or anything. And it doesn't matter, at least to me, probably we can't ever understand why. So, I can't say why there is evil, or stuff like that. And because we can't understand we shouldn't judge Him etc.. But because of the free will humans can be evil. It's choosing not to believe God and do all kinds of bad things. But I think there is deep in human mind a 'want' to do right thing, like kinda ability to do what God wants, but it's really hard to find that. Plus then the word of Bible. But remember, the first evil thing happened when that angel wanted to be more or as powerful as God, and so on. But it was part of God's plan already, it wasn't surprise. But forces of evil are fighting humans to their side all the time, and can poison your mind, beware. But the 'good side' will win, devil is just, (I think it was Luther who said this, or something like this) hound in leash held by God.. So.. I think this (Christianity) is kinda dualistic (sorry, not sure is it written that way in English) religion. Well. I don't say it's God's fault, angels has free will too, and it is just that free will that was given. The free will is the "root" of all evil, but it isn't God's fault, it's the one's fault who has it and doing evil things. Though, God knew that it can cause this that kind of things, but gave it and so on - because saw it was good. Well, the plan. Is said that God has plan to every of us or something. But still we should pray, thank Him, etc.. Yes, we should. I don't think this plan means that we are guided and every single though in our minds is made by God, and we can't affect on anything and we just go without doing actually anything by ourself. That would mean there is no free will. But I think that plan means that God knows how our lives will go, but they still aren't set or defined or whatever some think 'fate' is.. Maybe there are some things set in to our lives that we can't avoid, like for example getting on train accident and so on. Like some points. Some have those more and some less. But I think nobody is judged to end up in h3ll before they are even born. It's the choises we make, and what we believe in. It isn't written anywhere, they can be changed. Well, very hard to think that.. Ok, this is all strange, but it just is. "For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all that they could, they began to modify." 3001: The final Odyssey
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 2338 (2/13/04 7:39 pm) 212.92.76.33 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The Nature of God If God defines good and evil and he is more powerful than the devil than Christianity is not dualistic. Dualistic religion have a good and bad god with an equal strength. ----------------- Download free games on The Dos Vault!!! The Dos Vault forum, guest posting allowed.
Xtraverse Stranded Fish Posts: 2757 (2/13/04 9:00 pm) 69.162.175.74 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The Nature of God So you believe we shouldn't bother to figure out anything, because God made it and it's too complex for us? And "choosing" not to believe in God is something evil according to you? Because I certainly did not "choose" to not believe in God. Another thing, I don't see the point of all this worship crap to God. If he's such a loving caring God, why would he need all these humans groveling at his feet? The only praying I see as reasonable is praying for people in pain, misery, dangerous situations, etc... Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you on experience -- Mark Twain spatang.com
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1422 (2/13/04 9:35 pm) 203.26.24.216 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The Nature of God Speak of the devil eh? Another thing I can fill up on. In islam, we believe that god created three main forms of life... out of different elements. Humans being the most superior. Angels, Jinns (the devil is an evil jinn) & Humans. When god created the first man, Adam, he made the Angels & Jinns bow to him. (Of course there are good and bad angels & jinns) but one Jinn in particular refused, Sheytan/Shaitan (name of the devil in arabic; easiest way to pronounce it I suppose); he thought that Jinns were better than humans and challenged God so that he can mislead as many humans as he wants. God accepted and Shaitan will live until Judgement day. Angels & Jinns can see humans but we can't see them. Jinns whisper evil thoughts in other human's minds to midlead them. (We believe that the thoughts of phychics are thoughts whispered by the evil jinns; same applies to so called "Ghosts") So "The Devil" is basically just another one of god's 'Intelligent Creatures' but didn't respect the new-coming human. I hope that made sense and was all in order. Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
JosephBurke Tres-tria quindecim Posts: 285 (2/13/04 9:38 pm) 68.106.139.158 Reply \| Edit \| Del	God love. *Quote:* So you believe we shouldn't bother to figure out anything, because God made it and it's too complex for us? We shouldn't blame God for our own faults and lack of understanding, however He did mean for us to learn about His creation and thus Him too. *Quote:* And "choosing" not to believe in God is something evil according to you? Because I certainly did not "choose" to not believe in God. One day you just stopped believing or thinking God exists and it's not your fault? Didn't you used to believe in God when you were younger? *Quote:* Another thing, I don't see the point of all this worship crap to God. If he's such a loving caring God, why would he need all these humans groveling at his feet? The only praying I see as reasonable is praying for people in pain, misery, dangerous situations, etc... That's a small view on the Christian institution of devotion. It's about living a loving life and giving praise to God in all things.
Xtraverse Stranded Fish Posts: 2758 (2/13/04 10:05 pm) 69.162.175.74 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: God love. When I was young enough to believe anything people told me, I believed in God. When I was in fifth grade, I actually thought about the whole thing and it didn't seem logical to from what I knew at the time. I've tried since to "believe" in God but it's something I cannot do. Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you on experience -- Mark Twain spatang.com
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1424 (2/14/04 2:39 am) 203.26.24.216 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: God love. i tend to feel the way Xtraverse does; except that I don't let it get to me. Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
JosephBurke Tres-tria quindecim Posts: 286 (2/14/04 7:55 am) 68.106.139.158 Reply \| Edit \| Del	the place where you rest, is it half washed away I can agree with the both of you because, personally, my faith isn't where I would like it to be. I'd like being a Christian always to make perfect sense, unfortunately it rarely does and I find myself with lots of Bible knowledge and little self encouragement.
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 2341 (2/14/04 3:42 pm) 212.92.76.33 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: the place where you rest, is it half washed away *Quote:* Another thing, I don't see the point of all this worship crap to God. If he's such a loving caring God, why would he need all these humans groveling at his feet? The only praying I see as reasonable is praying for people in pain, misery, dangerous situations, etc... Praying is a way to get in contact with God. *Quote:* Angels, Jinns (the devil is an evil jinn) & Humans. When god created the first man, Adam, he made the Angels & Jinns bow to him. (Of course there are good and bad angels & jinns) but one Jinn in particular refused, Sheytan/Shaitan (name of the devil in arabic; easiest way to pronounce it I suppose); he thought that Jinns were better than humans and challenged God so that he can mislead as many humans as he wants. Not much different from the bible I suppose. Did you knew that in Roman legends God let the angals sing but the devil song false. Tolkien rewrote the story in the Silmarrilion. ----------------- Download free games on The Dos Vault!!! The Dos Vault forum, guest posting allowed.
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 2342 (2/14/04 3:46 pm) 212.92.76.33 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: the place where you rest, is it half washed away *Quote:* And "choosing" not to believe in God is something evil according to you? Because I certainly did not "choose" to not believe in God. *Quote:* One day you just stopped believing or thinking God exists and it's not your fault? Didn't you used to believe in God when you were younger? *Quote:* I can agree with the both of you because, personally, my faith isn't where I would like it to be. I'd like being a Christian always to make perfect sense, unfortunately it rarely does and I find myself with lots of Bible knowledge and little self encouragement. I see some regret here. I have also a very hard time with my believe. I can't get a long with the people in my church and I can't really believe either. Still I keep defending Christians and talk like them. ----------------- Download free games on The Dos Vault!!! The Dos Vault forum, guest posting allowed.
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1434 (2/14/04 11:07 pm) 203.26.24.216 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: the place where you rest, is it half washed away *Quote:* I can agree with the both of you because, personally, my faith isn't where I would like it to be. yeah. Maybe because I procrastinate too much. {Did I spell that right?} Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
JosephBurke Tres-tria quindecim Posts: 287 (2/15/04 6:19 am) 68.106.139.158 Reply \| Edit \| Del	yes sir No, you should have capitalized the Y in 'yeah.' Oh -- you meant procrastinate, yes it's correct.
CommanderSpleen Vortininja Posts: 200 (2/18/04 4:04 am) 203.220.174.227 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Bob, the Looniverse and Tooth. *Quote:* Simply put, what kind of god do you believe in? I believe in a 'God' that embodies paradox. I believe God is both 'looking down' on his creation and also embodying it at the same time. I believe in a God that exists eternally in a state of timelessness that we can scarcely imagine, yet a timelessness that allows the illusion of time as we know it. I believe God is everything, and therefore we are all God. It's unfortunate that this idea has been shunned by most religions--it's a powerful understanding when we realise that by being God we are not higher than anyone else but indeed equal, yet unique. However, my beliefs do not always correspond to my experience. While I may have a well-integrated intellectual understanding, my every-day experience sometimes reverts to a markedly existential outlook. In the short term, the thought that nothing really makes any difference is rather helpful when trying to get through a particularly difficult period of time, but in the long run it's quite depressing and unproductive. Still, it offers an opportunity to see through the veil and find a new level of truth. One morning recently I awoke to the realisation that the Universe could easily not have existed in the first place, as far as we can tell. Would it make any difference if nothing came into existence at all? It was a familiar thought--one that's occurred to me many times in the past, for as long as I can remember. And it never ceases to blow my mind. Usually I simply decide that since the Universe does exist, it's pointless to continue pondering the prospect of nothingness. This time, though, I'm using it much more productively, integrating some of the beliefs I've established into my everyday experience. One thing's for sure, though--I know for certain that there's more to the Universe than that which I see before me. Communicating with spirits via seance, other people, and christmas tinsel (long story), granted wishes (even longer story), persistent synchronous events, and all sorts of other profound experiences, have helped shape this certainty. >Commander Spleen ö Cave assectatorem Ductoris Alacris ö "For a long time progress has been hampered by the old feeling of separatism and the intolerance of another's method of approach to the truth. But even that handicap is finally beginning to be overcome. The cry for world-wide unity, peace, brotherhood and the casting down of barriers is increasingly making itself heard." - The Finding of the Third Eye, Vera Stanley Alder (1938, 1982) JimSoft Lair http://jimsoftlair.tripod.com/
KeenRush Photachyon Transceiver Posts: 5080 (2/18/04 2:59 pm) 212.246.17.130 Reply \| Edit \| Del	.. Mmmh, I like your wacky posts Spleen and the mind behind those. Anyways, one thing I agree with you, for sure, is that "there's more to the Universe than that which I see before me". Interesting thought.. Well, since you think that way, what do you think was our beginning, or did that even happen? And is there any "mission" or "plan" we have to do? "For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all that they could, they began to modify." 3001: The final Odyssey
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1457 (2/20/04 9:59 pm) 203.26.24.215 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: .. *Quote:* And is there any "mission" or "plan" we have to do? Yes... Worship God! Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
JosephBurke Tres-tria quindecim Posts: 291 (2/20/04 11:22 pm) 68.106.139.158 Reply \| Edit \| Del	indistinct *Quote:* Spleen: I believe God is everything, and therefore we are all God. It's unfortunate that this idea has been shunned by most religions--it's a powerful understanding when we realise that by being God we are not higher than anyone else but indeed equal, yet unique. That has more to do with the fact that the word god has a preset definition. You're broadening the definition to the degree that it is becoming like the word belief. Do you want to see the day when people say, "what's your god," or "what do you believe," and have them both mean the same thing? *Quote:* Spleen: While I may have a well-integrated intellectual understanding You shouldn't use the term intellectual so loosely; for while you may have an understanding of your beliefs your beliefs aren't necessarily understandable. 1+1=2 is intellectually understandable, but 1+1=3 isn't. I like that bit about nothingness, although there's no reason to think about some things a better understanding of present things is attainable through the indistinct.
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1463 (2/21/04 2:06 am) 203.26.24.215 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: indistinct Spleen thinks that everybody is a god? Nevertheless, it doesn't hurt to have faith in something; because if there IS an afterlife, you have nothing to lose. Everybody has a different belief and I have nothing against any of them although I may not have anything positive to say about them either. Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
ShadowIII Grunt Posts: 19 (2/21/04 3:37 am) 206.63.170.61 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Deep topic Wow! This is a very deep topic, but despite my better judgement I will put in my 2 cents. I believe God is all knowing, all powerful, all seeing, and created the universe and everything in it in six literal days. I also believe in the trinity; God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. (or Spirit) Maybe one way to explain the Trinity would be an egg. It has a yolk, white, and shell, but it is an egg in whole. I don't even think that is a good way to describe it since I'll never understand it fully (until I get to heaven, maybe). I believe the Bible is the true inspired word of God. I also believe that man is born with a sin nature and that God has given us free will. If we don't get His forgiveness and accept the redemption that Jesus' dying on the cross and resurrection provides, I believe we will go to Hell. The reason being, God who is perfect, cannot abide sin. Therefore we cannot go to heaven to be with Him unless we are redeemed through His Son and are forgiven our sins. Maybe that makes sense to you, maybe not. Like I said, deep topic.
LevelLord00 Meep Posts: 3 (2/21/04 10:24 am) 219.88.58.104 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Deep topic I'm with ya, although I don't think God is all knowing. Consider: "This statement is not known to be true by anyone." If God knows this to be true, then it's false, so it's true... Also can God make a sandwich so big he can't eat it? Anyways, screw evidence, I believe science, I believe in God, I don't need to justify my beliefs, thats what faith is.
KeenRush Photachyon Transceiver Posts: 5094 (2/21/04 11:18 am) 81.209.126.233 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Deep topic UnFleexable, I said that "And is there any 'mission' or 'plan' we have to do?" to ask Spleen about his beliefs.. Anyways, I'm thinking kinda same than ShadowIII. Yesterday I was browsing really interesting site about this stuff, too bad the site is in Finnish so it wouldn't be very useful to post a link here.. And levellord; that kind of stuff is quite pointless.. And remember, all those logic-things (it doesn't matter if that even wasn't one) is human invention, God doesn't need to care about them.. Or whatever we say is true etc.. And a sandwich. Well, of course He can do that, if it possible for Him to do anything, that really means ANYTHING.. "For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all that they could, they began to modify." 3001: The final Odyssey
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 2363 (2/21/04 3:37 pm) 212.92.76.33 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Deep topic *Quote:* Also can God make a sandwich so big he can't eat it? God doesn't eat sandwiches so no. But I see what you mean, he can't create a stone that he can't pick up for example. ----------------- Download free games on The Dos Vault!!! The Dos Vault forum, guest posting allowed.
Snaily Messie Posts: 977 (2/21/04 5:06 pm) 213.65.97.229 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Deep topic What makes picking up stones more god-like than eating sandwiches? ________ ¨@_
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 2367 (2/21/04 5:16 pm) 212.92.76.33 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Deep topic Never mind. ----------------- Download free games on The Dos Vault!!! The Dos Vault forum, guest posting allowed.
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1473 (2/21/04 10:58 pm) 203.26.24.217 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Deep topic i reckon some of these comments are just plain silly. Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
ShadowIII Grunt Posts: 21 (2/21/04 11:03 pm) 206.63.170.45 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Deep topic LOL.
LevelLord00 Grunt Posts: 8 (2/22/04 12:26 am) 219.88.57.103 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Deep topic True, so true, didn't he also enjoy stealing candy from babies? (Anyone got a younger sibling?) Who says God don't eat sandwiches? He created taste didn't he? You think he's going to sit up there not enjoying something he created? "Hell is sitting on a cloud playing a harp for eternity, in heaven they have booze and snacks." J. J. Quetion
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1479 (2/22/04 1:38 am) 203.26.24.217 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Deep topic *Quote:* True, so true, didn't he also enjoy stealing candy from babies? (Anyone got a younger sibling?) Nah, I think it's the other way around with me and my 2-year-old baby bro. *Quote:* Who says God don't eat sandwiches? He created taste didn't he? You think he's going to sit up there not enjoying something he created? Nah, i'm sure god's more imaginative than that! > Hello Kiddies! I'm Silly the Ghost!
KeenRush Photachyon Transceiver Posts: 5105 (2/22/04 8:41 pm) 81.209.122.206 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Yeahahaayii! Anyways, this thing (big sandwich or big rock) is meant to be some silly prove that God isn't omnipotent (I checked from some web dictionary, so I hope it's the right word..) or what? LOL. I still think He can do that, I can't see no reason at all why not.. Have you ever thought, that God, if He wants to, can make Himself for example not-perfect, or take some part "out" from His ability to do everything. He could make sandwich so big, and "set" a limit to Himself that He can't eat it - and that's it. "For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all that they could, they began to modify." 3001: The final Odyssey
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 2369 (2/22/04 9:01 pm) 212.92.76.33 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Yeahahaayii! But if set his limit of than he can eat it, he! ----------------- Download free games on The Dos Vault!!! The Dos Vault forum, guest posting allowed.
LevelLord00 Grunt Posts: 14 (2/22/04 9:58 pm) 219.88.57.165 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Yeahahaayii! Omnipotent, from latin (omni = all + potent = powerful) To have infinite or unlimited power or abilities Omniscient, from latin (omni = all + scient = knowledge) To know everything. Omnipresent, from latin (omni = all + present = to be somewhere) To be everywhere at once. There are others, but the one I want to see is Omnikeen, from latin (omni = all + keen = keen) To have at ones disposal all Keen games including all fan games and Keens 7-9.
BlueIllusionX Vortininja Posts: 297 (2/23/04 2:03 am) 24.207.35.30 Reply \| Edit \| Del	., I remember back in my elementary days, about i dunno, 10 years ago? i really believed in catholisism. I believed that God was the center of everything he created all of us. But now these last 5 years, i really dropped out of my faith. I find it hard to believe that there is a God. The first thing i dont believe is, "God was always there, he was never born or created" I just cant understand that to be true. Also, the king james version of the bible, i mean how we can accept that, it was writtien by one of the most dirtiest men ever. We are supposed to live our lives as holy, clean, pure, whatever you want to call it, but i mean we live our life the way these people tell us to, and our reward is when we die. We goto heaven or purgetory first and we get to live happily ever after in the clouds or in the burning flames. If we die and there is no heaven? We wasted our life trying to live by the rules of something that dosent even exist! When most of us catholics/christans or whatever were born, we were FORCED to be baptised and follow the ways of christ. What does that say? To me it means we have been brainwashed to believe in something, our teachers in kindergarten force us to believe that God is good and God is all powerful. Well to the heck with that. If i wanted to choose christianity as my religion, i should be able to choose it, like buhdism. Once the parents have a child, the child gets to choose if they accept to follow that religion. That is what gets me very annoyed. We were bapatised by default, we HAD NO CHOICE in this. We were forced to become christians and were forced to accept it. If we deny it, all hell breaks loose. My parents for example are hardcore Catholics, they believe everything that the bible says, everything the priest says and all. I just cant accept it. To me God dosent exist, not unless there is some proof. i cant believe something in a book that is 2000 years old and is probably not true.
LevelLord00 Grunt Posts: 17 (2/23/04 3:04 am) 219.89.1.178 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re,ligion God and religion are not the same, people like to surround themselves with rituals and taboos. They like to feel important by forcing others to do things. All the divisions in the church, and most of what many would call 'christianity' is invented. Read the bible to see what you should do. MUST you attend church EVERY sunday? No. MUST you be baptised? No. CAN you swear? Yes. (just don't use Gods name in vain.) Jesus came to set us free from such bindings, not to ensnare us in such foolery. Did you notice how he would dine with sinners and yet seemed to scorn the religious leaders? God probbably hates this stuff more than you do. As for existing forever, why not? Must everything have a beginning? Was there an infinity before the universe? Are black holes infinitely dense? Just because you can't concieve it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, after all can you concive our universe just poping out of... of... nothing? no, nothing is still something... damn now my brain hurts.
CommanderSpleen Vortininja Posts: 204 (2/23/04 4:08 am) 210.15.242.68 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Larfable Spectactularism *Quote:* Anyways, one thing I agree with you, for sure, is that "there's more to the Universe than that which I see before me". Interesting thought.. Well, since you think that way, what do you think was our beginning, or did that even happen? And is there any "mission" or "plan" we have to do? My current belief as to the formation of this Universe is that the big bang did indeed occur, but within a higher level of reality than we can comprehend in our three-dimensional consciousness, where time as we know it does not exist, and therefore neither does 'beginning' or 'end'. I'm also convinced that the 'levels of reality within levels of reality' process continues indefinitely--there could be a concept even broader than 'existence' which we cannot even think of imagining, and indeed broader concepts above that. God's imagination, if God can indeed be interpreted as a separate entity from the overall process, is broader than we can comprehend. More abounds in the Multiverse than we ever dare dream. Such a belief remains at the edge of my understanding, right where I like mine to be. If I find it no longer suits me, I'll trash it in a moment, or let it evolve into something else if necessary. As for a 'plan'... I believe we're simply here to experience the immensity of possible experiences that existence itself offers. Nothing more, nothing less. I believe we're given complete dominion over our lives, so much so that we can delegate that control to sepearate parts of ourselves so we may remain unaware of them. Thus, we can create heaven and hell out of our own thoughts, conscious or unconscious. This isn't to say that I believe heaven and hell are unreal. This matter, as far as I'm concerned, it immaterial, so to speak, as everything we perceive before us is as real as anything we could possibly imagine. And conversely, anything we could possibly imagine is as unreal as everything we perceive before us. Something of an paradoxical anti-paradox. I believe we're here to explore the implications of this fact--to live the highs and the lows, the time-bound and the timelss, the peaceful and the chaotic, the mundane and the awesome. *Quote:* i reckon some of these comments are just plain silly. Silliness is one of the greatest gifts we have available to us. I find it indispensible when the world starts to become a bit too real. The ability to discard logic for a moment and embrace the infinite, experiencing our fabricated worlds as if they were ultimate reailty (which I believe on some level they are, or can be) is one of the greatest joys available. Hell, that's why I'm here at these forums. *Quote:* Yeahahaayii! Couldn't have said it better myself. *Quote:* Do you want to see the day when people say, "what's your god," or "what do you believe," and have them both mean the same thing? Actually, I'd rather see the day where people can see each other as part of themselves, inextricably interconnected, yet unique and important. Asking, "What's your god?" is still reminiscent of a perception of separation. That perception is necessary for us to experience our present lives, to work through the lessons associated with that experience. We each need to find our own truth the best way we know how. *Quote:* Spleen thinks that everybody is a god? Yes. In a way. I believe we're all gods of our own individual experience, moulding our world every moment of the day through the thoughts we project, that by changing our thoughts we can change our experience. *Quote:* Also can God make a sandwich so big he can't eat it? I don't see why not. I'm sure absurdity is as much a part of God's nature as logic. And I'm sure he's probably delighted at the amusing spectacles he can conjur. *Quote:* Have you ever thought, that God, if He wants to, can make Himself for example not-perfect, or take some part "out" from His ability to do everything. He could make sandwich so big, and "set" a limit to Himself that He can't eat it - and that's it. Exactly. Pure freedom, even to the extent of being able to disallow parts of it. Anyway, that's some further insight into my outlook. It's intriguing to hear what others have been saying. It's certainly offering me some alternative views on a few topics I haven't reviewed for some time. >Commander Spleen ö Cave assectatorem Ductoris Alacris ö "For a long time progress has been hampered by the old feeling of separatism and the intolerance of another's method of approach to the truth. But even that handicap is finally beginning to be overcome. The cry for world-wide unity, peace, brotherhood and the casting down of barriers is increasingly making itself heard." - The Finding of the Third Eye, Vera Stanley Alder (1938, 1982) JimSoft Lair http://jimsoftlair.tripod.com/
LevelLord00 Grunt Posts: 20 (2/23/04 8:13 am) 219.88.57.185 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Larfable Spectactularism Wow. Now there's somone who knows how big God is. I agree with practically all of what you're saying. However my belief is unshakeable. No amount of argument will change it. God exists no matter what. Of course while we're all wondering about how deep and incocievable God is he could be eating tacos and watching the simpsons.
KeenRush Photachyon Transceiver Posts: 5109 (2/23/04 10:14 am) 81.209.122.206 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Larfable Spectactularism Levellord, good post some posts up here. That's kinda what Luther said - we aren't going to be saved by doing "earthly" (cw?) stuff (rituals etc..) or giving money to Catholic church and get our sins off.. No no no.. It doesn't matter do you go to church every Sunday (which I seem not to do, too bad), attend it's stuff.. It's just that you believe God and Jesus, and want to be saved, and accept them, you are thankful to them etc.. Just like before - meaning times before huge churches or stuff like that. And like you said, I have seen some people that work for church or are just always there, and those people I mean seem to think kinda that they are so much better than others and not sinful or anything.. "For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all that they could, they began to modify." 3001: The final Odyssey
ShadowIII Grunt Posts: 23 (2/24/04 5:18 am) 206.63.170.46 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Larfable Spectactularism I hope me saying that the Roman Catholic Church is not really true christianity doesn't offend anyone, so I won't. If I am a God, can I order commanderspleen around? You have every right to accept christianity or not. You have the free will to believe the Bible or not. Maybe the fact that people still believe it after 2000 years is evidence for it's truth, or maybe you think that people have remained ignorant for that long. Either way, believe what you will, I won't kill you for it. I know where I'm going when I die though, and I have no doubts. The Bible says that "let no unwholesome speech come out of your mouth", so that would probably encompass swearing. Last, but not least; You cannot buy pardon for sins. Saying 100 "hail mary's" will not get God's forgiveness. That is one thing that really makes me mad at the catholic church.
Xtraverse Stranded Fish Posts: 2785 (2/24/04 6:20 am) 69.162.175.74 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Larfable Spectactularism Why is Catholicism not true Christianity? Because they believe people who do not believe in God can still get into heaven? Or because they listen to scientists rather than base their entire scientific belief system on a 2000-year old book? Some people are pragmatists, taking things as they come and making the best of the choices available. Some people are idealists, standing for principle and refusing to compromise. And some people just act on any whim that enters their heads. I pragmatically turn my whims into principles. -- Calvin spatang.com
KeenRush Photachyon Transceiver Posts: 5116 (2/24/04 7:37 am) 81.209.122.206 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Larfable Spectactularism I haven't said it isn't true Christianity, and I think it is true.. "Or because they listen to scientists rather than base their entire scientific belief system on a 2000-year old book?" That's the reason. Just kidding, what I have seen and heard, other churches listen to scientists as well, in physics and how the world works, but of course not in everything.. Hmmm, I can't get anything said, since I think Catholic is as good as the others (though, in some point of time it was a bit not-so-good, since by giving money to church you could buy your sins off, popes were doing stuff that they shouldn't etc..). "For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all that they could, they began to modify." 3001: The final Odyssey
LevelLord00 Grunt Posts: 23 (2/24/04 9:27 am) 219.88.58.111 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Larfable Spectactularism My father is catholic; while no one can say their religion is the 'true' christianity, there are elements in a lot of religions that do not ring true. During the middle ages catholicisim was tainted and corrupted by greedy and powerhungry people. Elements I disagree with are: killing infidels (theres forgiveness for you.) witch burning (great way to kill enemies, still no forgiveness.) paying a tithe (10% of your income? it's not mandatory.) as well as a few other thing I just don't see in the bible, or are gross misinterpretations of it. (No sex before marrige; where did that come from?) All in all, the catholic church has a lot to be sorry for, but todays catholicisim has pulled itself from the mire of ignorance and manipulation. On swearing: I'd say God wouldn't take to insults too well, but I see no reason for not swearing when you say delete 6 weeks of work. (%$#* XP!)
CommanderSpleen Vortininja Posts: 210 (2/26/04 11:17 pm) 210.15.242.68 Reply \| Edit \| Del	The Word *Quote:* If I am a God, can I order commanderspleen around? Sure, if you wish. I'm part of your outer reality, so the option is there. Though I have the freedom to follow or reject your orders. Being a god of your entire reality infers many more productive possibilities, though. *Quote:* The Bible says that "let no unwholesome speech come out of your mouth", so that would probably encompass swearing. It's a recommendation rather than a command. The words we speak affect us on many levels, and carelessly spitting out acidic ("unwholesome") words sets in motion habits of thought that produce a bleak mindset which can taint our interpretation of the world even when the going is good. Although leaving thoughts of a similar nature unexpressed can have unpleasant repercussions as well, so trying to control our speech alone, rather than starting from the inside and changing our habits, tends to create more problems than it solves. It's probably more productive to swear than to complain about the weather, or to deal out harsh criticisms to others for their little idiosyncrasies. Either way, it all starts from within. >Commander Spleen ö Cave assectatorem Ductoris Alacris ö "Keep thy heart (imagination) with all diligence, for out of it are the issues of life." Proverbs 4:23 JimSoft Lair http://jimsoftlair.tripod.com/
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 aka Silly the Ghost Posts: 1497 (2/27/04 8:30 am) 203.26.24.211 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The Word *Quote:* God is he could be eating tacos and watching the simpsons. well duh! after being featured in so many episodes! J/k! > Hello Kiddies! I'm Silly the Ghost!
JosephBurke Tres-tria quindecim Posts: 306 (2/28/04 11:55 am) 68.106.139.158 Reply \| Edit \| Del	I didn't mean for this post to be so long. On occasion I'll swear, though just because I'd rather be a slow steady improvement of my old self. Through God I can see, who I have to be and what I should do, and in time I will learn and do many of those things; taking a false stride or being ignorant about myself won't help the world or bring praise to God. There are many in the Christian institution who have failed on this point; they have failed to see that it is a love for God and not vague declarations that make a true Christian. According to the Bible, if a man but fails to love his neighbor he is not fit for the kingdom of God; so also, if a man but follows rules and not his heart will he walk the path to doom. God must exist in our very will and not just in our choices; we must become like Him, not pretend to be Him. What are we to do if our brothers have betrayed us with their hearts? They walk around carrying a fake smile pretending -- lying to themselves, saying that they love each other. Their footsteps tell where they come from, they show their true deeds and the bitter places they have been. On my heart, I know that I have been a part of this half lie and that I must leave the home I have built for myself. The home I built after drinking the poison of human reason, the home built by my own choices and with my own reasoning; it was never God's home or His love living through and with me, it was a lie and sometimes a damn good one. Damn, that word doesn't sound so bad to me now. To admit a mistake is to start on a better path. Or as the Bible put it, if your hand sins against you, cut it off. (ed - changed grammar a little, maybe not enough.) Edited by: JosephBurke at: 2/28/04 12:04 pm
LevelLord00 Vortininja Posts: 59 (2/28/04 1:00 pm) 219.88.57.110 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: I didn't mean for this post to be so long. Indeed, the church is not the most forgiving place, my friend was an atheist for seven years because he couldn't wear jeans to church. "No one should be here" -Level Lord
ShadowIII Grunt Posts: 24 (2/28/04 10:05 pm) 206.63.170.67 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Larfable Spectactularism *Quote:* Why is Catholicism not true Christianity? Because they believe people who do not believe in God can still get into heaven? The Bible says that Satan and the demons believe in God, but do you think they would go to heaven? Anyway, You have to do more than believe He exists. And yes, it is contrary to the Bible to say that people who do not accept Christ as saviour will go to heaven.

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