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hinkle0 Grunt Posts: 31 (1/25/04 2:46 am) 24.107.160.82 Reply \| Edit \| Del All	GLBT Marriage At risk of being excommunicated from the world, I'd like to post a little advert. I would assume that, as a rational person, you support same-sex marriage. If you live in America (and perhaps if you don't, though I'd doubt it) you have probably heard of the proposal for the Federal Marriage Amendment, an amendment to the Constitution that would define marriage as a union between a man and a woman only. I find it interesting that on the home page of the organization sponsoring the amendment proposal (that link up there), a caption to a picture mentions a civil rights leader. This civil rights leader is opposing gay marriage. Can someone explain this to me? I thought civil rights were the rights belonging to people by virtue of citizenship. And this person is apparently trying to take them away. To get to my point, I believe that same-sex marriage ought to be legalized in the United States. It ought to be in other countries too, but as I like in the US I am more disposed to lobby for it here. There is a petition sponsored by the Human Rights Campaign that they are calling Million for Marriage. I would like to humbly ask you to sign this petition. It would also be a good thing to spread the word of this petition so as many people as possible hear about it. It doesn't require you to be a US citizen to sign, but as it is a petiton concerning America, it is probably a bit dishonest or deceptive to sign unless you are a US citizen. Thank you for your time, and I hope this doesn't offend.
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1281 (1/25/04 2:56 am) 203.26.24.213 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage *Quote:* To get to my point, I believe that same-sex marriage ought to be legalized in the United States. no offense or anything, But are you gay? *Quote:* There is a petition sponsored by the Human Rights Campaign that they are calling Million for Marriage. What's the world coming to? Homosexuality (IMHO) is inhumane, homosexuality is becoming a "trend" and it's creeping me out, I don't think homosexuality even existed in the last century (maybe among very few people) and all of a sudden, people are giving in to the media & western culture. The world is becoming a very sick & twisted place... I am not homophobic, this is just the way I feel. And besides... God created genders for a reason... I think i've said a bit too much. Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
John Vortininja Posts: 218 (1/25/04 3:17 am) 207.221.53.126 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage *Quote:* I think i've said a bit too much. Unfleex, don't be afraid to stand out for what you believe in. Yes, hinkle can say that he is for same-sex marriages, and yes, you can say that you are against them. Freedom of speech. As it happens, I also am against homosexuality... But may it be noted that I am not going to participate in any arguments that may be started about it, unless I see a compelling reason to do so. This is because my reason for being against it and arguments against it are Biblical, which probably doesn't apply to the majority of users here. Twilight Dragon Media
Xtraverse Stranded Fish Posts: 2711 (1/25/04 4:05 am) 69.162.185.136 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage I will gladly sign the petition hinkle. *Quote:* no offense or anything, But are you gay? I'm not gay but I completely support what hinkle's suggesting. That really has nothing to do with this anyways. *Quote:* homosexuality is becoming a "trend" and it's creeping me out, I don't think homosexuality even existed in the last century Homosexuality is not a "trend," it has existed as long as humans have. *Quote:* all of a sudden, people are giving in to the media & western culture. What makes homosexuality western? Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you on experience -- Mark Twain spatang.com Edited by: Xtraverse at: 1/25/04 4:06 am
eK Isonian Posts: 1382 (1/25/04 4:24 am) 143.109.90.166 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage I think we should force everyone we possibly can to conform to our sexual and societal norms.
Robo Blue Vorticon Elite Posts: 1033 (1/25/04 4:25 am) 24.187.190.18 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage *Quote:* What's the world coming to? Homosexuality (IMHO) is inhumane, homosexuality is becoming a "trend" and it's creeping me out, I don't think homosexuality even existed in the last century (maybe among very few people) and all of a sudden, people are giving in to the media & western culture. No offense unfleex, but why would gays be mentioned in the bible if they didn't exist more than a hundred years ago? Also, how could homosexuality be a trend? It's a biological state, akin to having dark or light skin. If you're referring to gay culture, I believe that every group of people has a right to develop independently, and act the way they want to (it's called freedom). However, before this gets ugly, I'd like to comment that the Republican Party (ie, George Bush) is the only political organization to have taken a strong stance on the issue. Other politicians have shied away from the trend, hoping not to deal with an impending civil rights war, akin to the 60s. What we need is for more people to take open stances, either for or against, as John has pointed out. That doesn't mean flaming or violence is appropriate, though. There's no holiday for Malcolm X. To clarify my own position, I've signed the petition. Official Keenbound Site Visit #dosgamers on irc.mircx.com! Edited by: Robo Blue at: 1/25/04 4:26 am
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1283 (1/25/04 4:41 am) 203.26.24.213 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage *Quote:* No offense unfleex, but why would gays be mentioned in the bible if they didn't exist more than a hundred years ago? One, I am not a christian, and two, Bibles are available in hundreds, thousands or even tens of thousands of different editions, and people just keep adding more and more to the Bible. It never remained in one state as far as I'm concerned. I really don't care whether you support homosexuality or whether you are against it. I can understand that some people may have uncontrollable homosexual tendancies, but that doesn't make you a homosexual, but many people just give in to their tendancies, and there you have a homosexual person. I know people need freedom, but being brainwashed by the media is not necessarily "freedom". As long as there are profanity obsessed rappers and openly gay home renovators on TV, there will always be a group of people will always look up to them. Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
KeenRush Photachyon Transceiver Posts: 4909 (1/25/04 8:02 am) 212.246.17.130 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage Well, I'm against it. But as xtra said, that kind of thing has existed very long time, but these days people don't even try to hide it or keep it secret or something.. Seems that church overall isn't so much against all that like it used to, but I still think it's not right. Dunno, I just think so. I didn't sign the petition or whatever it was. "The world is becoming a very sick & twisted place..." It already is. Long Live Internet! Hmmm, am I only one expecting 15 page topic coming? "For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all that they could, they began to modify." 3001: The final Odyssey
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 2268 (1/25/04 9:23 am) 212.92.76.33 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage IMHO homo marriages are not true marriages. Marriages were founded for a man and women to stay together for the rest of their lives and get kids. *Quote:* One, I am not a christian, and two, Bibles are available in hundreds, thousands or even tens of thousands of different editions, and people just keep adding more and more to the Bible. It never remained in one state as far as I'm concerned. Can you please tell me more or just prove that anything changed? Different translations are something different than changing or adding things. ----------------- Download free games on The Dos Vault!!! The Dos Vault forum, guest posting allowed.
Snaily Messie Posts: 960 (1/25/04 12:43 pm) 213.65.97.229 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage We have same-sex marriages here in Sweden, even though it is called "registered partnership". Also, as one of the first countries in the world we allow gay couples to adopt children. I'm all for it. ________ ¨@_
KeenRush Photachyon Transceiver Posts: 4913 (1/25/04 5:04 pm) 212.246.17.130 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage ^ Hmmm, I wonder is it very good for mental health if both of parents are same gender.. And probably that kid doesn't like that very much when he/she is older and when he/she realizes what's that strange thing in family. Or well, how do I know how common it will be in the future.. "For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all that they could, they began to modify." 3001: The final Odyssey
hinkle0 Grunt Posts: 31 (1/25/04 5:41 pm) 24.107.160.82 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage *Quote:* no offense or anything, But are you gay? Bisexual, with my amorous attractions tending toward females. Since my amorous attractions are what's important to me, that's generally the course I follow. So if I ever were to get married (assuming same-sex marriage is legalized), there would be around a 90% chance of me marrying a woman. *Quote:* Marriages were founded for a man and women to stay together for the rest of their lives and get kids. So any infertile couple should immediately file for divorce? Or should they adopt? In that case why couldn't an "infertile" gay couple adopt? Well, this point isn't a strong one to me... I never plan on having children, my own or adopted; and I also think the government should regulate the number of children you're allowed. Everyone says the earth's population is exploding... And still they're having children every which way. *Quote:* I wonder is it very good for mental health if both of parents are same gender It's not the gender that matters. It's the actual parent... The emotional state some children are in because of their perfectly heterosexual but socially dysfunctional parents is absolutely deplorable. Really, I'd much rather have gay "parents" than have a father who is suffering from depression and a mother with one or two personality disorders. Not to say that gays don't have any of these problems... /me hopes that this thread won't just turn into an argument over homosexuality rather than one over same-sex couples to marry. But he also thinks it may be a good idea to have the first as well, since as far as he can see this forum has never had a topic of this sort before... In short, he just doesn't know and ought not to have said anything in this paragraph.
Keeniver Grunt Posts: 28 (1/25/04 6:31 pm) 207.179.107.93 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage *Quote:* ^ Hmmm, I wonder is it very good for mental health if both of parents are same gender.. And probably that kid doesn't like that very much when he/she is older and when he/she realizes what's that strange thing in family. Or well, how do I know how common it will be in the future.. About that, I ask you one question: Do you think there's anything wrong with my mental health? I don't. Of course, I might not neccessarily think there was if there was, but you know what I mean... and I don't mind. The only thing I do mind is that my parents don't get along very well, but I know that they wouldn't even if they were different genders. So that's basically irrelevant. Of course I do also have to take into account that only one of my parents is actually transgendered, and they were married before that happened, but they never did get along very well. And I do think I'm old enough to realize such things. I mean no offense by any of this, and I really don't want to get caught up in an argument, but I'd like to make the point that just because one of my moms is transgendered, does not mean anything at all about me. I'm basically for it, yeah; but I'm not going to sign the petition because I just don't sign petitions.
Yowza Vortininja Posts: 194 (1/26/04 12:42 am) 220.244.236.14 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage I'm against it.
adurdin Wormouth Posts: 910 (1/26/04 1:21 am) 203.21.143.232 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage hinkle0 said: *Quote:* I would assume that, as a rational person, you support same-sex marriage. Rationality has little (if anything) to do with it. You could quite easily have two equally rational people with different worldviews (that is, initial assumptions) coming to opposite and contradictory conclusions through a logical train of reasoning. eK said: *Quote:* I think we should force everyone we possibly can to conform to our sexual and societal norms. Nice one, eK: was this said seriously, or are you trolling? That's a rather oxymoronic position, if you think about it.
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1293 (1/26/04 2:35 am) 203.26.24.213 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage *Quote:* Can you please tell me more or just prove that anything changed? Different translations are something different than changing or adding things. Yes Djaser, I know that people translate the Bible, but in addition to that, they either add things or take things out of the Bible. Also, many people (including Christians) believe that it is a paradox. To my knowledge, Christians believe that God came into the form of a human (Jesus) to die to forgive all of mankind's sins. And that God is in three forms. I do not believe that. As a muslim, I do believe in Jesus, I do believe that he was sent by god as a miracle to Mary, but NOT as son of god, and performed many miracles to the Jews to convert them to Islam (it may have had another name back then, I am not quite sure) but Jesus failed in converting the Jews and they killed him as they thought he was cursed due to the many miracles that god had granted him. A small group of Jews followed Jesus's teaches but were somewhat misled. When Jesus was thought to be crucified, God made one of Jesus's Underlings (who betrayed Jesus) look identical to Jesus and the Jews killed Jesus's underling instead and Jesus was sent to heaven by God. But Jesus was not the FINAL messenger of God, the final messenger was Muhammad and he had revelations sent to him by God (like what happened to Jesus) and noted in the Quran, that Jesus was also a messenger of God. (Since it's written in Arabic, it's written as Isa). Sorry for going on and on about this. I've just written it as a matter of interest. An child adopted by homosexuals IS COMPLETELY wrong, i'd only recommend adopting children if you are sterile etc. But then again, people just have sex for the sake of it and use contraceptives. Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
eK Isonian Posts: 1383 (1/26/04 5:02 am) 143.109.90.166 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage I was joking in what I was hoping would be a meaningful way, but I don't think anyone paid attention to it. As an anthropology major, and having taken a class on sexuality and gender just last semester, I could say a lot about this matter. Unfortunately, saying anything would be pointless. Those with a biblical perspective are not going to be swayed by a non-biblical argument. Though, I think anyone with a non-biblical perspective should be on the side of gays, because, if you strip away the religion, everything left over says that these people would be happier if allowed to be themselves comfortably in our society - and there's no reason to deny them happiness asside from petty childish prejudice or an inability to accept change. Also, I think maybe people who think homosexuality is purely biological should take an anthropology class on gender -- you might be suprised how mutable sexuality is. Sexuality is more a cultural construct then biological. Seems hard to believe, but there's too much evidence for it to dismiss the power of culture.
TCL999 Vorticon Elite Posts: 389 (1/26/04 5:11 am) 198.82.58.144 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage *Quote:* To my knowledge, Christians believe that God came into the form of a human (Jesus) to die to forgive all of mankind's sins. Basically, yes. And what are you talking about that people keep adding to the bible? That's just crazy talk. Sure there's different versions like the New International Version or King James Version but those different versions don't change the context of the Bible. Everything except for a few things have the same meaning. It's just a means of updating the Bible in terms of speech that people use today. Or you could be talking about the Translation of the Bible from Greek to all the different languages of the world. Yes, this could possibly distort some meanings in the bible which it no doubt has. But this is the same for any religious text in reality. And I'm sure there's got to be more than 1 version of the Quran, correct? Also, I'm curious as to why Muslim's believe in Jesus? To know that he produced miracles, they would have no doubt read the bible, correct? So if they believe that point, then why not believe the rest of the story? Just curious. I have nothing against anyone of any religion. It's always just interesting to find out. *Quote:* I do believe in Jesus, I do believe that he was sent by god as a miracle to Mary, but NOT as son of god, and performed many miracles to the Jews to convert them to Islam (it may have had another name back then, I am not quite sure) Islam didn't even exist back in that time. Muhammad wasn't born until 570 AD or something. He wasn't really "trying" to convert any of them over to any religion. Back on topic, I'm also against gay marriages, but I wouldn't mind the legal representation of a gay "partnership."
CommanderSpleen Vortininja Posts: 159 (1/26/04 5:15 am) 203.220.174.106 Reply \| Edit \| Del	I don't mind... This is an intriguing topic. I never realised there were so many people against homosexuality in any form. Personally, the only reason I would be against same-sex marriages is that I really don't believe in marriage as it exists these days. This is part of a general objection. I don't feel the need to be recognised by the community for anything I do or anything I am--which is what marriage intends to do. Society believes it has the answers, but I'm convinced it doesn't--it's stumbling around in the dark as much as any of us in this day and age. I don't see it lasting to much longer in its current state. We're constantly hearing messages about unity, equality, that we are 'one people'. Yet we're as separate as ever, fencing ourselves off from each other physically and mentally. But, I accept this situation, as it comes about based on people's decisions. I know that many people aren't really happy with the way their lives are functioning, and how everything around them operates. Most people, when I really talk to them, tell me this. So when I can, I offer my views and see if I can get them to embrace their own beliefs--the ones they likely suppress in order to conform. I don't try to prove them wrong, as I know there's ultimately no right or wrong. I just try to steer them in the direction they want to go, which is really all one can do. So, if people choose (or are compelled) to declare themselves homosexual/bisexual/transexual, then if that's the direction they want to take, I'm all for it. Likewise on the subject of marriage. But that's just me. *Quote:* I think we should force everyone we possibly can to conform to our sexual and societal norms. *Quote:* I was joking in what I was hoping would be a meaningful way, but I don't think anyone paid attention to it. It was a well-placed comment. Says a lot for the one liner it is, when you really look at it. >Commander Spleen ö Cave assectatorem Ductoris Alacris ö "Childhood provides a treasure house of creative memories... turn your attention to it. Raise up the sunken feelings of this enormous past... your personality will grow stronger... out of this immersion in your own world, healing comes. This adds new meaning to your life." - http://www.higher-self-improvement-pursuits.com/creative-memory.html JimSoft Lair http://jimsoftlair.tripod.com/
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1294 (1/26/04 11:22 am) 203.26.24.217 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: I don't mind... *Quote:* Islam didn't even exist back in that time. Muhammad wasn't born until 570 AD or something. He wasn't really "trying" to convert any of them over to any religion. yes, Islam did exist before the 500's, but not many people knew about it, as many of the lesser known Messengers of god were neglected, killed etc. Also, We believe in Moses as a messenger of god as well. But was also misled. There's a lot about Islam, that I know, but also there's a lot that I don't know, I am only saying what I know, otherwise I wouldn't bother arguing. Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 2271 (1/26/04 1:03 pm) 212.92.76.33 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage No offense but it sounds like propaganda to me. Do you have any source? EK, ofcourse everyone should be allowed to be happy but that's not the case here. There are rules, we don't want pedofilis doing anything they want for example. But ofcourse you are right every unbeliever should be forced to be on the side of the homosexuals, thank you for revealing the real truth to us. Hinkle0, my point is that a true marriage is between a man and a women. I don't say kids are necesairy, I don't want kids myself. I believe that homosexuality is like an error in the nature. I don't blame anyone for it but I certainly believe from my non-religious point of view that gay marriages are wrong. ----------------- Download free games on The Dos Vault!!! The Dos Vault forum, guest posting allowed.
Snaily Messie Posts: 961 (1/26/04 2:42 pm) 213.65.97.229 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage First, kudos to everyone for keeping this topic reasonably calm. *Quote:* <snip>Unfortunately, saying anything would be pointless. Those with a biblical perspective are not going to be swayed by a non-biblical argument. Though, I think anyone with a non-biblical perspective should be on the side of gays</snip> I think you are dismissing this all too lightly. Of course there are people whose beliefs are rock solid, but they are not the majority. *Quote:* There are rules, we don't want pedofilis doing anything they want for example. Not the same thing; while pedophily causes immense trauma for the child, noone is harmed by a homosexual relationship. I think what eK is referring to is the basic libertarian rule - you are allowed to do anything to maximize your happiness, as long as you don't interfere with someone else's right to the same thing. Not that I personally like this kind of reasoning, but that's another topic... Also, regarding religion - Christianity, Islam and Judaism are all sprung from the same seed. Kind of makes you wonder. ________ ¨@_
BlueIllusionX Vortininja Posts: 294 (1/26/04 3:29 pm) 24.207.35.30 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage I do not have anything against homosexuality, but at the same time i do not support it. I dont mind if people are gay, lesbian or Bisexual. Its not their fault if they are, its just they way they grew up. You cant say for a person not to be a homosexual, its like saying to someone to not to live. I can see why gays and lesbians want same sex marriages, because they see it is normal and nothing wrong with it, just as we see male and female relationships. I will admit, i do feel slightly uncomfortable about gays, but eventually i will get over that. I do know some gays and i treat them as anyonelse as much as possible. I used to be completely homophobic, but now not so. But to your petition, i dont know if i will sign it. mabey.
Xtraverse Stranded Fish Posts: 2714 (1/26/04 3:37 pm) 64.30.37.14 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage Unfleexable, read a history textbook. Islam started in the early 600s. http://www.cqpress.com/context/articles/epr_islam.html Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you on experience -- Mark Twain spatang.com
Robo Blue Vorticon Elite Posts: 1036 (1/26/04 4:42 pm) 24.187.190.18 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage *Quote:* Society believes it has the answers, but I'm convinced it doesn't--it's stumbling around in the dark as much as any of us in this day and age. I don't see it lasting to much longer in its current state. That's a very apt comment. Who are we to know what's right and wrong? Especially nowadays, with the blurring of the republican and democratic parties (what's the difference now, besides gay marriage and george bush?), a lot of issues are judged based on inherited evidence, and not on logic. I'm not referring to religion so much as gut instinct. Gay marriage is generally an issue that you either feel is wrong deep inside, feel is completely neccessary, or just don't care (which doesn't seem to be as common as the other viewpoints). It's more or less a question answered by how you were raised. My mom is a pastor, but I personally sway away from religion on conservative issues, so naturally I feel right at home in the liberal arguement (aka, pro gay marriage). However, if I really considered all the evidence, unfleex and eK are right to some extent. Homosexuality is noticeable because it's been allowed to thrive in our recent society. In a very real sense, society has abandoned our religious heritage. Would you brag to your friends about helping out at your local church? Probably not. Politics hold this problem too. Although gay marriage is a major issue, politicians have been attempting to confine it to radical arguements. The general viewpoint is not "Gays should be allowed to marry!" or "Not on my watch!", but is more along the lines of "please god don't let me have to speak on this." This shows the rather outdatedness of our political culture, and hints that there will be a change in the near future. I believe that this change will stem from George Bush's mention of gay marriage in his state of the union address. His extreme-conservative position will force the Democrats to take an extreme liberal positon... hm... I seem to have gotten off track, but I hope you got my point. Official Keenbound Site Visit #dosgamers on irc.mircx.com!
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 2272 (1/26/04 7:50 pm) 212.92.76.33 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage *Quote:* Not the same thing; while pedophily causes immense trauma for the child, noone is harmed by a homosexual relationship. I think what eK is referring to is the basic libertarian rule - you are allowed to do anything to maximize your happiness, as long as you don't interfere with someone else's right to the same thing. True, but as I said to Hinkel; gay marriages are against the nature. So I believe it is wrong. Would you sat pedophily was right if it the childs agreed with it. Bwah that is a sick thought ----------------- Download free games on The Dos Vault!!! The Dos Vault forum, guest posting allowed. Edited by: Djaser at: 1/26/04 8:06 pm
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1296 (1/27/04 2:30 am) 203.26.24.213 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage *Quote:* Unfleexable, read a history textbook. Islam started in the early 600s. Yes, I know that Islam was known as Islam in the 600s, but I don't know what it was called or known as before then. There have always been a small group of muslims even before the 600s. But as I've said, Muhammad is the final and only prophet to have changed the world of Islam, the other messengers have failed to spread god's revelations without being killed, betrayed etc. Also, we believe in the angel Gabriel (it has a very similar name in Arabic), who has been spreading revelations of god to the messengers of God, including Muhammad, Jesus & Moses etc. *Quote:* Hinkle0, my point is that a true marriage is between a man and a women. I don't say kids are necesairy, I don't want kids myself. I agree Djaser, but unlike some keeners here, I really do want children when I'm older. Sure they can be a handful, but i've looked after my siblings long enough to know what i'm doing. *Quote:* I believe that homosexuality is like an error in the nature. I don't blame anyone for it but I certainly believe from my non-religious point of view that gay marriages are wrong. Same here, like every other human being, yes, I am a sinner too, I am not the most righteous person in the world, but I DO have my morals, and I believe that homosexuality is wrong, be it for religious or moral reasons. *Quote:* Also, regarding religion - Christianity, Islam and Judaism are all sprung from the same seed. Kind of makes you wonder. Yes, they have, but in the Quran, it notes that Christianity & Judaism was misled. I don't know if they are noted in other holy books. *Quote:* I do not have anything against homosexuality, but at the same time i do not support it. I dont mind if people are gay, lesbian or Bisexual. Its not their fault if they are, its just they way they grew up. In a way, I do agree to that, because we can't change the world, I really don't care if people are homosexual, unless maybe if my "Future" children or people I know and care about become homosexuals, than that will be the only exception! But then again, I believe that it IS the particular person's fault if they become a homosexual, Yes, I am aware that people don't intend to become homosexual, but allow their tendancies to get to them. *Quote:* I used to be completely homophobic, but now not so. But to your petition, i dont know if i will sign it. Same. But I will not sign the petition, I do not support homosexuality to the slightest extend, and I don't want my email to be flooded, nor do I want to support something that is so inhumane. *Quote:* Homosexuality is noticeable because it's been allowed to thrive in our recent society. In a very real sense, society has abandoned our religious heritage. Would you brag to your friends about helping out at your local church? Probably not. Politics hold this problem too. Although gay marriage is a major issue, politicians have been attempting to confine it to radical arguements. The general viewpoint is not "Gays should be allowed to marry!" or "Not on my watch!", but is more along the lines of "please god don't let me have to speak on this." This shows the rather outdatedness of our political culture, and hints that there will be a change in the near future. I believe that this change will stem from George Bush's mention of gay marriage in his state of the union address. His extreme-conservative position will force the Democrats to take an extreme liberal positon... hm... I seem to have gotten off track, but I hope you got my point. Yes, that is so true. But politics don't care about what we think. They practically do everything for the sake of money. I think i've quoted/written too much! EDIT : *Quote:* Would you sat pedophily was right if it the childs agreed with it. Bwah that is a sick thought Very sick indeed Djaser... Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns Edited by: 0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 at: 1/27/04 2:32 am
Yowza Vortininja Posts: 199 (1/27/04 7:08 am) 220.244.236.14 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage *Quote:* Would you sat pedophily was right if it the childs agreed with it. I was going to say the exact same thing. ... but of course, you beat me to it. Damn :P
Ilsoap Flect Posts: 885 (1/27/04 8:37 am) 24.67.253.204 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage I suppose I should be stopping myself from joining this, since odds are, this thread will go nowhere, but here goes. Yeah, I'm against it. I'm against two guys being married to each other, and I'm against two girls being married to each other. I also have not seen ANY proof that homosexuality is genetic, and I've seen quite a few good reasons to the contrary (the identical twins argument, for instance). However, I can definitely sympathize with them. The best argument for gay marriage that I've heard is "How can two people who don't love each other have nothing stopping them from getting married, and then divorced a few years/months/days later, when two people of the same sex who love each other for years upon years are barred from doing so?". And they're absolutely right. That is wrong. People want to get married why? Because they "fell in love with each other". FALL in love???!?!?? Falling implies that you just accidentally started loving someone for no apparent reason. If you're basing a marriage on something accidental, no wonder you want to get divorced a few years later when you dust yourself off and realize that that person isn't right for you. When I get married to whoever I end up getting married too, it won't be accidental. We will be friends. We will truly love each other. And we will love God even more than we love each other, and because of that there will be a bond there that won't be broken, because both of us will know going into it, that, despite any bumpy roads along the way, we're completely committed to each other. Period. THAT is what marriage was created to be, and that is what I still firmly believe it is. If this was the accepted view of what marriage was, and every couple was joined in that way, this whole conversation would not exist. However, since marriage is now, to most people, nothing more than two people running on emotions, I have no legal ground for my beliefs. I could continue to my other argument against gay marriage, but it's late. Not only that, but I've learned not to say too much in posts, because if the post is too long, people won't read any of it. Or maybe that's just me. http://www.screenhog.com/
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1310 (1/27/04 9:31 am) 203.26.24.213 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage *Quote:* When I get married to whoever I end up getting married too, it won't be accidental. We will be friends. We will truly love each other. And we will love God even more than we love each other, and because of that there will be a bond there that won't be broken, because both of us will know going into it, that, despite any bumpy roads along the way, we're completely committed to each other. Period. THAT is what marriage was created to be, and that is what I still firmly believe it is. If this was the accepted view of what marriage was, and every couple was joined in that way, this whole conversation would not exist. Applause. Bless you Ilsoap, My helmet goes off to you. Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
Xtraverse Stranded Fish Posts: 2716 (1/27/04 12:31 pm) 64.30.37.14 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage *Quote:* In a way, I do agree to that, because we can't change the world, I really don't care if people are homosexual, unless maybe if my "Future" children or people I know and care about become homosexuals, than that will be the only exception! So you would disown your children if they tell you they're homosexuals? Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you on experience -- Mark Twain spatang.com
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 2273 (1/27/04 2:00 pm) 212.92.76.33 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage Ilsoap that was very well said but there are also people who divorce after a very long while. They didn't love each other accidently and there are also people who just didn't divorce but didn't love each other anymore. What is right thing to do? ----------------- Download free games on The Dos Vault!!! The Dos Vault forum, guest posting allowed.
Snaily Messie Posts: 962 (1/27/04 2:01 pm) 213.65.97.229 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage *Quote:* Would you sat pedophily was right if it the childs agreed with it. Maybe I'm just stupid, but I fail to see where I said this was the case? ________ ¨@_
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 2274 (1/27/04 2:06 pm) 212.92.76.33 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage I didn't say you pretended that(I wouldn't dare), it was a question to you because I wanted to make a point. And other people here understood here. Oh that was very well said Ilsoap but there are also people who divorce after a long while. There are also people who don't divorce but don't love each other anymore. This is not accidentally but what is the right thing to here? ----------------- Download free games on The Dos Vault!!! The Dos Vault forum, guest posting allowed.
KeenRush Photachyon Transceiver Posts: 4925 (1/27/04 3:48 pm) 212.246.17.130 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage Pretty well said Ilsoap! That's exactly what I think too. "For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all that they could, they began to modify." 3001: The final Odyssey
eK Isonian Posts: 1386 (1/27/04 8:43 pm) 143.109.90.166 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage Ilsoap, I certainly agree with you about what marraige should be, but I don't think you should assume that these people don't have that kind of open bond. As with heterosexual couples, some are committed and truly devoted, where as others aren't. As for the biology of sexuality. Anthropologists (and biologists) have been trying to figure this out for a long time, and no one seems to agree on it. There is no evidence for a biological cause for homosexuality (though there IS one for transgenders, people who are born female and want to be male or vice versa) but that certainly doesn't mean there ISN'T one. There's no conclusive evidence either way. --- Don't complain to me if you aren't adult enough to read beyond this point --- - you have been warned - There is, however, a lot of evidence supporting a mutable sexuality defined predominantly by culture. The Sambien tribe of, I believe, New Guinea, practices imposed homosexuality. In their culture, pre-pubescient boys perform oral sex on older boys, and it is believed that semen is what allows boys to grow into men. There's a lot of stuff I could get into with regards to them, but I'm gonna keep it simple. Essentially, the Sambiens regard this as normal, and engage in homosexual relations for years before being married. Some men, even after marraige, prefer homosexual relations, and a few find heterosexual sex so repulsive that they refuse to marry. This could be attributed to biology, as well as culture. It could be that culture defines for them what their sexuality should be, and they find it natural that way. Or, it could be that they are biologically predisposed to bisexuality, either because of an original biological predisposition that they then built a culture around, or a biological predisposition that developed as a result of the culture. The Spartans of ancient Greece also practiced bisexuality, as well as mild pedophilia (if I remember rightly). They valued youth and beauty, regardless of sex. In a culture where pedophilia is considered normal, and children accept it as normal - can it be said to be wrong? Ethics, as well as sexuality, are cultural constructs. How can you claim it as morally wrong without understanding the perspectives of an alternate culture that views it as morally right? Certainly it can't work in our culture, and people who practice it are terrible (though, those who are pedophilias and don't engage in pedophilia should be applauded for their self control). Bonobos, a close cousin to chimpanzees, sometimes called pygmy chimps do to their slenderer build (though they are not significantly shorter) have a culture that uses sex to relieve stress. They will have sex with everyone, regardless of age or gender. This is biological, Bonobos raised in the zoo act in the same way. Clearly, then, sexuality can be biological, though that doesn't mean it always is, or that it is in the case of homosexuals. Personally, I believe there is a biological predisposition in some towards homosexuality (or bisexuality), but I also think culture can alter or redefine sexuality for any individual. You can't change someone's sexuality after the fact, but people define their sexuality through culture, and so the stimuli they recieve most certainly constructs their sexuality as much as, or likely more than biology. -- Despite the attempts of our culture to force everyone to be heterosexual or to look or act a certain way, people still manage to end up different. There's simply no way around it. As a culture, we must choose whether to make their lives miserable, or whether to be mature and accept them for who they are. The Bible is simply outdated. There are a number of laws and ideas in the old and new testaments that have been easily discarded as being non-applicable to modern situations, or down-right wrong. They worked back then, but not now. Clearly the idea of homosexuality being wrong is one of them. In acient times, homosexuality just didn't work. Survival depended on family structure. To live, people needed families, children to help with the work. Heterosexuality was the only alternative. We don't live in that world anymore. Now, homosexuality could almost be prefered - considering the ever inflating human population. Homosexual couples can also provide homes for children who'd otherwise grow up in orphanages. There is nothing inherently morally wrong with homosexuality, it's just different. Certainly, it's not normal: We were designed to procreate, and that's only possible in heterosexuality, but that doesn't make homosexuality wrong.
Robo Blue Vorticon Elite Posts: 1037 (1/27/04 8:54 pm) 24.187.190.18 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage *Quote:* Would you sat pedophily was right if it the childs agreed with it. You're implying that you are superior to all homosexuals, which is something you can't pass judgement on. *Quote:* People want to get married why? Because they "fell in love with each other". FALL in love???!?!?? Falling implies that you just accidentally started loving someone for no apparent reason. If you're basing a marriage on something accidental, no wonder you want to get divorced a few years later when you dust yourself off and realize that that person isn't right for you. That's very true, but you're overlooking one important fact. Love has always been that way. The only recent development is that women have a say in marrital issues. Before that, a guy would impress the father of a girl who he wanted to marry, and could then be a jerk for the rest of his life. It was almost uncommon to be faithful to your wife. While wifebeating was frowned upon, women more or less had to sit and take it. They were servants, just above slaves. I personally think that our situation has improved by the ability of women to divorce men. Official Keenbound Site Visit #dosgamers on irc.mircx.com!
Snaily Messie Posts: 963 (1/27/04 8:56 pm) 213.65.97.229 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage While a little generalizing, the above was a good read. ________ ¨@_
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1315 (1/27/04 9:57 pm) 203.26.24.213 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: GLBT Marriage *Quote:* So you would disown your children if they tell you they're homosexuals? Oh my lord! NO! Of course not! I'd spank them until they learn! Okay then, I wouldn't disown my children, of course, they choose how to live their own life in time, and I will learn from my experiences, but I certainly would not be proud of them nor would I disown them if they decide to become homosexual. Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
baabis Gannalech Posts: 204 (1/27/04 9:58 pm) 62.78.172.152 Reply \| Edit \| Del	re: I don't want to interfere with other people trying to achieve happiness unless they're hurting someone. Thus I couldn't care less if homosexuals were allowed to marry. I mean, why the f* should it concern me? If that makes them happy then go for it. Also, I find people who are against homosexuals terribly amusing, especially because of their arguments. I laughed out loud at the sight of some christians protesting against homosexual marriage here in Finland. And usually when I find people amusing, it's not because they're trying to be funny. I mean, those people were crying**, wailing how "the homosexuals bring pain and misery to everyone." That's just pathetic.
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1318 (1/27/04 10:15 pm) 203.26.24.213 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: re: *Quote:* I mean, those people were crying, wailing how "the homosexuals bring pain and misery to everyone." That's just pathetic. Although I'm totally against homosexuality. I find it amusing (as with many other people). About a year ago at a motel, my cousin accidently switched the TV to Queer As Folk (i found out what the name of the show was the following week), we all laughed out loud! Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 2280 (1/28/04 3:39 pm) 212.92.76.33 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: re: *Quote:* You're implying that you are superior to all homosexuals, which is something you can't pass judgement on. No. ----------------- Download free games on The Dos Vault!!! The Dos Vault forum, guest posting allowed.
lemur821 Vortininja Posts: 125 (1/29/04 4:03 am) 64.48.129.67 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: re: First of all has anyone noticed how much GLBT sounds like a sandwich? Not a good one, but something like Gorgonzola, Lettuce, Banana, and Turnip. Anyway, I just signed the petition. I support GLBT (not the entree) marriages wholeheartedly. Homosexuality is wrong. Not on a moral basis, in my opinion just incorrect. We're not designed that way, that's not how it's supposed to work. I don't mind it though. It hurts no one, and I had a good friend who was a lesbian, giving me a viewpoint closer to the homosexual side of the issue. I see no logical reason that they shouldn't be allowed to marry. There is no one at all harmed. I defy you to find someone harmed by a same-sex marriage. You can't. On the other hand, people are most definately harmed by denying them the privelage of marriage. They miss out on all the benefits conferred on married couples. All kinds of spousal benefits are out of reach. And there's nothing they can do, because they can't change their preference. I bet everyone here likes breathing air better than water. Unfortunately, that's not legal. Switch. What?! You can't? That sounds silly, doesn't it? It's not certain why people become homosexual, but it is certain that they have no choice. I believe some form of trauma is usually the cause. Even something like growing up in a chaotic home environment. Maybe they feel unable to meet the demands society places on their gender? It's a fact that small children can get messed up good by things you might not think they would get well messed up by. "Hey, you! Don't give in to your air-breathing tendencies!" I believe all sandwiches should be allowed to marry.
JosephBurke Tres-tria quindecim Posts: 251 (1/29/04 4:25 am) 68.106.139.158 Reply \| Edit \| Del	hungry Mmm, sandwiches....
Djaser Holy Monk Yorp Posts: 2282 (1/29/04 2:36 pm) 212.92.76.33 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: hungry I fear this is getting nowhere. And most people don't seem to understand what I'm saying. I can't make it more clear so I leave this discussion. ----------------- Download free games on The Dos Vault!!! The Dos Vault forum, guest posting allowed.
BlueIllusionX Vortininja Posts: 294 (1/29/04 3:16 pm) 24.207.35.30 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: hungry i think we can just say for the sake of this argument: gays and lesbians should be able to marry if they want to If your against, it, oh well, what are you going to do.
JosephBurke Tres-tria quindecim Posts: 253 (1/29/04 8:55 pm) 68.106.139.158 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Uh, okay. Although, personally I believe the sanctity of marriage is something God never intended for gays and lesbians it's not for me to stand in their way.
Xtraverse Stranded Fish Posts: 2721 (1/29/04 9:34 pm) 69.162.185.136 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Uh, okay. As marriage was a human invention, there's no "sanctity of marriage" as far as I can see. Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you on experience -- Mark Twain spatang.com
JosephBurke Tres-tria quindecim Posts: 253 (1/29/04 10:50 pm) 68.106.139.158 Reply \| Edit \| Del	God has plan With biblical pretenses the union between a 'man' and a 'woman' is something God created/established. Mathew 19:4-6 (Jesus is speaking.) "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." All of Mathew 19. bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+19&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on As for the Bibles stance on gays and immorality, in the Old Testament you were killed and in the New Testament not allowed in the church. The difference being that Jesus brought salvation and gave everyone a second chance. If any of you attend church I applaud you but you're missing out on a lot of the Bibles teachings, most of harsh and yet very important teachings don't get preached about much. For this reason you should read the bible on your own, I'd start with the gospels (Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John) then move to other important books like Proverbs, Psalms, Ecclesiastes, and Genesis. After you've read those you'll have a basic understanding of the Bible and Christianity, you can then move on to whatever you want; though, I'd choose more New Testament books like Romans and all the Epistles.
lemur821 Vortininja Posts: 127 (1/30/04 2:23 am) 64.48.129.84 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: God has plan Yeah, the Old Testament doesn't quite give the big picture. Jesus changes everything.
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1335 (1/30/04 6:34 am) 203.26.24.213 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: God has plan *Quote:* I believe some form of trauma is usually the cause. Even something like growing up in a chaotic home environment. Maybe they feel unable to meet the demands society places on their gender? *Quote:* Although, personally I believe the sanctity of marriage is something God never intended for gays and lesbians it's not for me to stand in their way. Yes, I would have to agree on that. Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
Flaose The Vagrant Posts: 1386 (1/30/04 3:20 pm) 68.147.109.142 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: God has a plan Personally, I think the government has no business being "in the business" of marriage. To ensure property rights, etc., they should simply issue a "Certificate of Committed Relationship" (or some other wordy name) to whomever should apply for it, make it equivalent to current "marriage rights", and get rid of "common-law rights" (as they will no longer be necessary). After that, let the people do as they wish...though I feel marriage is a religious institution (a union under God), and a marriage without God is somewhat superfluous. As an aside, if you agree with "alternative lifestyle" marriages, do you have anything against incestuous marriages? If not, what is your reasoning? -------------------- Cerebral Cortex 314 - For All of your Commander Keen Needs. Eat at Joes
JosephBurke Tres-tria quindecim Posts: 256 (1/30/04 5:11 pm) 68.106.139.158 Reply \| Edit \| Del	sorry At this point I am not sure…
Ilsoap Flect Posts: 886 (1/30/04 8:45 pm) 24.67.253.204 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: In Response To Everything (I'm going to be here awhile) Before I respond to everything that I can respond to (this will be a long reply, sorry), I'd like to mention about the question of when Islam started. The consensus seems to be it was around 600 AD. Personally, I believe that the early roots of Islam began right with Ishmael's (Abraham's son's) early descendants, but since it doesn't apply here, I'll leave it at that. *Quote:* Ilsoap that was very well said but there are also people who divorce after a very long while. They didn't love each other accidently and there are also people who just didn't divorce but didn't love each other anymore. What is right thing to do? You mean like my parents? They divorced over similar reasons (as far as I can tell). I honestly believe they could have worked it out. It was amazing, talking to each of them individually, how similar they were on so many subjects, yet unwilling to see that they were on the same page. I wouldn't change their divorce now, because my dad remarried, and I have two half-brothers (four and two years old) with another sibling on the way, which has been awesome. But still, it was the second-worst event in my life. (Never you mind what the first one was.) *Quote:* Ilsoap, I certainly agree with you about what marraige should be, but I don't think you should assume that these people don't have that kind of open bond. As with heterosexual couples, some are committed and truly devoted, where as others aren't. Well... I suppose it would be impossible for me to prove this, but I truly believe that no matter how committed a gay couple would be, because they're defying the way God made them and not acknowledging him, there would always be something missing from their relationship. But since we're going by proof, I guess I have no answer to that. I will admit that there are people who are born more receptive to trying it, but it's still their choice. I could give an example of what I mean, but the only example I can think of goes a little personal in a certain way, so I have to leave it at that. *Quote:* While wifebeating was frowned upon, women more or less had to sit and take it. They were servants, just above slaves. I personally think that our situation has improved by the ability of women to divorce men. I see where you're coming from... but that isn't the way marriage was originally intended. Marriage = guy + girl; in other words, the two become one. It was always meant to be a partnership. Yes, the man was to be at the head of that relationship, but that didn't give him authority to abuse, ignore, and otherwise hurt her. On the contrary, that gave him the obligation to protect her. *Quote:* Also, I find people who are against homosexuals terribly amusing, especially because of their arguments. I laughed out loud at the sight of some christians protesting against homosexual marriage here in Finland. And usually when I find people amusing, it's not because they're trying to be funny. I mean, those people were crying, wailing how "the homosexuals bring pain and misery to everyone." That's just pathetic. Yeah... you have a point there. What gets is me is the Christians who point to homosexuality as being some sort of "super-sin" that's way bigger than any other sin, and because of that fact, gays should be punished or put on a desert island or something. It's just as bad as lying, or gossiping, or lust, etc. Jesus would never have stopped loving them. "Go and sin no more." *Quote:* I think we can just say for the sake of this argument: gays and lesbians should be able to marry if they want to. If your against, it, oh well, what are you going to do. This brings up my other argument against it. It's not so much an argument, but more of a "wake up, look at what's ahead" sort of thing. Here goes (mature readers only): Right now, we want to legalize same-sex marriages, right? Well, I'm against that, but I can see that no matter how hard I, or anyone else tries to go against it, eventually it will happen. So I give in. Let them be married. But, I propose that we go much further than that. You see, a debate that's this heated seems to come around every 4 or 5 years, which divides countries, cities, and families. Isn't there a better way? I believe there is. What if we figure out what all the future issues of this magnitude will be, follow them to their predictable outcome, and allow them right now, instead of waiting 10, 20, 50, or 100 years? It would sure solve a lot of long-term problems. So here goes: after gay marriage is allowed, someone will realize that bigamy should also be legal. It only makes sense. If two females can get married, why should one man be able to marry two women? So this issue will be debated a bit, but no one will be able to come up with any reason to stop them, so they give in. Bigamy is allowed. Well, if we aren't allowed to discriminate on the basis of number, and three people can get married, why not four, or five? If bigamy is allowed, can you honestly give me a reason why four people, who truly love each other, shouldn't be allowed to get married? After all, marriage is just a man-made institution, and when the times change, so should it. I now refer you to a case that's actually gone through the legal system in the past, but hasn't made it yet. A woman in Eastern United States was tired of trying to find a man, so she wanted to marry herself. Really. The case was thrown out, but if we aren't discriminating on the basis of number, I'm not sure it would be thrown out now. So now that any number of people can marry any number of other people, we've pretty much solved all marriage questions. Right? Oh, wait, apparently not yet. See, apparently there's this guy who has a pet dog. This dog is his only companion, and he really loves his dog. I mean REALLY loves him. And his dog... well, he's a dog, of course he really loves his master. So he applies for a marriage license, but isn't allowed one. He takes it to court, and after several years convinces the court (and the general public), that indeed, he was born that way. He just likes animals THAT much. So, he's allowed to be married to his dog. (Don't believe me that this is possible? Look up beastiality sometime.) I could go on and on here, about the woman who believes that since she can talk to her husband from beyond the grave, she should still be allowed to be married to him, etc. But the end result of all this is that, in the name of marriage being something that shouldn't be exclusive to a heterosexual couple, it instead becomes an institution that doesn't mean anything at all. Most of you probably skipped past that because it was so long. If you have the time, I do urge you to read it. Your thoughts? http://www.screenhog.com/
eK Isonian Posts: 1389 (1/30/04 9:54 pm) 143.109.90.166 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: In Response To Everything (I'm going to be here awhile) *Quote:* Yes, the man was to be at the head of that relationship, but that didn't give him authority to abuse, ignore, and otherwise hurt her. On the contrary, that gave him the obligation to protect her. I've always respected you Ilsoap, and our differences in opinion. But man, I just lost a some of that respect. That's such an outdated, androcentric notion. I'm shocked that that's actually what you believe. There is no perfect union in domination, regardless of magnitude.
Ilsoap Flect Posts: 888 (1/30/04 10:08 pm) 24.67.253.204 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: In Response To Everything (I'm going to be here awhile) OK. Fair enough. Honestly, I don't have a problem with the man being considered at the head of the relationship, so long as he knows what that means. It's a position that has been abused throughout history. It doesn't mean that women don't have a say, it doesn't mean that women shouldn't vote, it doesn't mean that both sides compromise in the relationship, and it's not an attitude of "I wear the pants around here, so what I say goes". It's a position of protection over your family, and whenever I get married, I'll be proud to fill that role. To be quite honest, I'm surprised that you didn't comment on a lot more of my gratuitously long reply. I don't know if I should be honored that most of my comments were accepted enough by you to not be commented on or not. (Or am I reading too much into that.) http://www.screenhog.com/
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1350 (1/31/04 1:33 am) 203.26.24.213 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: In Response To Everything (I'm going to be here awhile) To be honest Ilsoap, I have read that ENTIRE post! Sure, it may be long, but it doesn't take THAT long to read. Ilsoap has a very good point. I'm not too sure, i'll ask my dad when he returns home, but I think bigamy is allowed in Islam. As long as the man is loyal to his wives and loves them, he can marry as many woman as he wishes. Sure, not many muslims do that (well at least in this day in age), but i'll post another message in a few hours, because as i've said earlier, I DO NOT KNOW FOR CERTAIN, And by bigamy, I don't mean by a man having sex with various women, if that is what some of you are thinking, that is wrong. A man marrying his dog. HAH! That is just wrong! Won't be surprised if it is legalized some day. I mean, people are just sick these days. Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
Xtraverse Stranded Fish Posts: 2724 (1/31/04 2:45 am) 69.162.175.74 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: In Response To Everything (I'm going to be here awhile) If there are people that believe they are predisposed to polygamy or bestiality, I doubt there will ever be a high enough population to make any legal difference. Surprisingly enough, there are villages of people in Arizona (and I think Utah) that call themselves Mormon (though I don't think the Mormon church recognizes them) and the entire social structure revolves around polygamy, with a bunch of old guys trading 16 year old daughters with each other. The federal government just leaves these communities alone and tries to stay out. Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you on experience -- Mark Twain spatang.com
Robo Blue Vorticon Elite Posts: 1043 (1/31/04 3:00 am) 24.187.190.18 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: In Response To Everything (I'm going to be here awhile) eh... Ilsoap, no offense, but that was kind of silly. Beastiality is one thing, but marriage requires an emotional bond. Someone would have to be REALLY drunk to get married to a dog. It's the kind of thing you'd have to do if you lose a bet or something. Even if someone truly "loved" their dog that much, he or she would have to have absolutely no self-respect. I mean... that's just sad. There's also a certain amount of respect involved in being the priest who marries them, and the judge who allows this sort of nonsense to slip past him. It's just an incredibly pathetic concept that no one in any position of power would ever lend themselves to. As far as bigamy goes, it's unlikely that it will be passed at anytime in the next thousand years. Marriage requires some level of trust, and I'm sure that the Vegas marriages have no bearing on important decisions. Those who truly support bigamy are really in the extreme minority, as the mainstream Mormons have denounced it. I don't know anything about Islam bigamy, but I'm sure that Islam isn't in the popular favor right now. Also, it's nearly impossible to have a pure, trusting relationship between three people. Something, somewhere, has to give. *Quote:* Personally, I think the government has no business being "in the business" of marriage. This is very true, and I'm surprised it hasn't been more widely noted. The government really has no business presiding over marriage, as that would violate the seperation of church and state. Official Keenbound Site Visit #dosgamers on irc.mircx.com!
PSTR Grunt Posts: 37 (1/31/04 4:14 am) 66.74.45.198 Reply \| Edit \| Del	homosexual marriage (that was the topic, right?) it seems like a non-issue to me. Gays and lesbians don't need legal titles to publicly declare their committed relationships. Domestic partnership gives legal benefits. And even if it was legalized, the religious meanings of marriage stay the same, so some Christians get all fired up over nothing. As someone who lives in Palm Springs, where ~40% of the men are gay, I don't feel any pressure to be gay, their culture is just part of the city. People who are confident about themselves don't feel a desire to conform or convert others to their own ways. Ilsoap, that was hilarious!
CommanderSpleen Vortininja Posts: 174 (1/31/04 6:12 am) 203.220.174.160 Reply \| Edit \| Del	This is getting interesting... This is starting to get particularly interesting. The discussion seems to be moving away from the clichè arguments and really considering the implications. Ilsoap brought up some very interesting points. Indeed, things can start getting right out of hand if we progressively give into more and more unusual practices. Sure, we may say that legalising same-sex marriages won't change the nature of marriage in any way, it does open the doors to further questions as to what marriage is really about--union between man and woman or union between anyone and everyone? Or even anything!? I mean, taking it up from where Ilsoap left off, what about people wanting to marry a tree, or their car? *Quote:* Someone would have to be REALLY drunk to get married to a dog. Not necessarily. Emotional disorders make people do some crazy stuff. If a compulsion toward beastiality was strong enough (and I'm sure there are a lot of cases like this out there) then marriage could easily become the next step It really all boils down into a simple question: Where do we want to go? Although the majority agrees on a lot of fundamental answers to this question, some of the larger issues still divide us. The issues that are unmet so far will come up. Marriage and homo/bi/transexuality are among these issues. Do we really understand what 'freedom' infers? By opting to give the individual freedom, we as a society have opened the doors allowing the questions of morality to flood in. And they are incredibly complex and pardoxical questions. One the one hand, there's the wellbeing of the individual, and on the other hand there's the freedom for the individual. We discern a lot of morality based on clashes between these two elements--if one individual wants something that will cause another's wellbeing to diminish, then we will generally disallow it. But what about things that we can tell are the result of an individual's low level of wellbeing exerting influence the individual's freedom? If a man wants to marry his dog, there's likely an emotional imbalance behind the decision. It's an emotional imbalance that can be cured, though (finding the ultimate cause, rather than treating symptoms with drugs). But do we force the individual in question to undertake the necessary therapy? Do we accept that individual's decision? Or, do we simply refuse to recognise the issue at all? As Ilsoap suggests, looking far into the future at the long-term effects of our decisions is a productive means of discerning our stance on an issue. My stance is slightly blurry at the moment, as I'm still assimilating what I've read here today along with a lot of mind-blowing stuff I've been reading these past couple of days. So what I've said above may not make a lot of sense, and there may be elements missing. But take from it what you will, and complain bitterly about anything that doesn't work. >Commander Spleen ö Cave assectatorem Ductoris Alacris ö "Childhood provides a treasure house of creative memories... turn your attention to it. Raise up the sunken feelings of this enormous past... your personality will grow stronger... out of this immersion in your own world, healing comes. This adds new meaning to your life." - http://www.higher-self-improvement-pursuits.com/creative-memory.html JimSoft Lair http://jimsoftlair.tripod.com/
JosephBurke Tres-tria quindecim Posts: 256 (1/31/04 7:30 am) 68.106.139.158 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Weddings, God, and the government. *Quote:* robo blue: This is very true, and I'm surprised it hasn't been more widely noted. The government really has no business presiding over marriage, as that would violate the seperation of church and state. If you don't want to do it the governments way than don't. Make a private commitment, with God, to the one you love and live together; the whole ceremony and wedding certificate thing is superfluous. The Bible supports such a stance by example, take Genesis 24:61-67, when Isaac marries Rebekah. 61 And Rebekah arose, and her damsels, and they rode upon the camels, and followed the man: and the servant took Rebekah, and went his way. 62 And Isaac came from the way of the well Lahairoi; for he dwelt in the south country. 63 And Isaac went out to meditate in the field at the eventide: and he lifted up his eyes, and saw, and, behold, the camels were coming. 64 And Rebekah lifted up her eyes, and when she saw Isaac, she lighted off the camel. 65 For she had said unto the servant, What man is this that walketh in the field to meet us? And the servant had said, It is my master: therefore she took a vail, and covered herself. 66 And the servant told Isaac all things that he had done. 67 And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's death.
Snaily Messie Posts: 965 (1/31/04 11:43 am) 213.65.97.229 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Weddings, God, and the government. Just poking in with a further clarification: Islam allows the man to have up to four wives, as long as he loves them all equally. This last part has caused the practice to be largely uncommon (or even prohibited) in most islamic countries. ________ ¨@_
KeenRush Photachyon Transceiver Posts: 4959 (1/31/04 3:07 pm) 212.246.17.130 Reply \| Edit \| Del	This is getting interesting... (Agree!) Hmmm.. That was very good post Ilsoap. In case the world doesn't come to end in this decade or the next, I wonder what kind of things there will be. Like you said, who knows - maybe that time it can be possible for anyone to marry whatever he/she wants (not to mention it exists or not). Totally freedom.. And about that someone marrying dog. Well, I believe there are quite many people who would like to do that. After all, if you have seen what some do with them.... (Internet is sick!) More drunk would be those who accept the marriage between those two.. "For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all that they could, they began to modify." 3001: The final Odyssey
Ilsoap Flect Posts: 889 (1/31/04 9:00 pm) 24.67.253.204 Reply \| Edit \| Del	That's my point! That's just my point, though. Of course someone marrying his dog sounds silly now. But who in the 1950's would have ever seriously considered the idea that homosexuals would actually be allowed to marry in a court of law? It was a preposterous idea! The world could never come to that! Why, if gays and lesbians were allowed to marry, what's next, banning prayer from schools? But here we are. And fifty years from now, marrying a tree could be considered normal ("But, I just want to be one with the earth!"). That's pretty much the limit for my views on this subject. Apologies to everyone who has a thick layer of sarcasm dripping from their computer screens after reading all of my posts. I'll have to e-mail you all some Windex or something to clean it off. http://www.screenhog.com/
eK Isonian Posts: 1391 (1/31/04 11:38 pm) 143.109.90.166 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: That's my point! allowing gays and lesbiens to marry will obviously cause us to rethink how we define marraige, but I think that's a good thing. Maybe it'll expand further, and into areas we can't predict. But lines will be drawn, you can't argue against homosexual marraiges on the grounds that it will cause a cascading deterioration of society. That's simply not going to happen. Maybe polygamy will be allowed, maybe it won't be. Lines will be drawn when we get to them. Just because something is weird or unthinkable now, doesn't mean it's wrong. Marrying a dog is just silly because they aren't able to consent - if you want to think about future consiquences, then please try to be logical about it.
Crazy Dude Vortininja Posts: 193 (2/1/04 5:56 am) 207.54.102.45 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Same-sex marriages are just wrong, I can't believe that any of you guys think it should be legalized. What person in the right mind would like that? I mean it's just wrong for guys to marry each other. It's sickening, every time I see a news report and they show gay marriages, it grosses me out. It's absolutely horrid! You know that the Romans were all homosexuals and guess what happened to them? The Roman Empire fell because of it. This fornication of marriage is going to be ultimate undoing of the world's most powerful nations. I'm disgusted as a Canadian citizen that same sex marriages are legal here. The only reason it was passed was because Chretien wouldn't leave and all the attention was on Chretien than on the issues of our country. There's only one kind of marriage in this world, and it's between a man and a woman. That is it, that's what God meant it to be, not between two gays. It's sick and it's wrong. Don't sign this piece of crap.
KeenEmpire Keen's Empire Posts: 671 (2/1/04 6:49 am) 203.151.38.3 Reply \| Edit \| Del	sfsf Wai a minute, are you serious? About the Romans thing, even? Edited by: KeenEmpire at: 2/1/04 6:54 am
JosephBurke Tres-tria quindecim Posts: 259 (2/1/04 9:28 am) 68.106.139.158 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Greeks, they all look the same to me. There probably were gray Romans, though the Greeks were the ones infamous for it. Funny isn't it that Socrates, who was a homosexual, married a female.
Robo Blue Vorticon Elite Posts: 1044 (2/1/04 10:10 am) 24.187.190.18 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: This is getting interesting... To make a general observation on the debate thus far, it seems to more or less be an arguement of new concepts vs old traditions. Tradition is a volatile thing, as many parts of it will not stand the test of time. Policies (such as those laid out in the bible) usually address the context of the times. This can clearly be seen in the change from the Old Testament to the New Testament, as some of the old information becomes (no offense to any orthodox Jews here) obsolete. In the Old Testament, God is an angry, vengeful god. Jesus brings the radical (at the time) new concept of forgiveness to the table, in the New Testament. I've heard that 2000 years passed between King David's rule and the birth of Jesus. That's a very long time, and even the most adaptable of laws, concepts, and advice can wear out. Jesus brought a new set of laws that worked (better for some than for others) in it's own time. Much of what Jesus said and did is true today, but I believe that much of it also needs to be updated. It may be noted, however, that the most long-lasting concepts in the bible tend to be the most vague. Many of the conceps Jesus targeted as useless, and sometimes dangerous, were in Leviticus. Leviticus contains the series of laws and customs specifically written out as the Jewish people have followed them for thousands of years (not that there's anything implicitly wrong with being Kosher, it just doesn't fit my current beliefs). Jesus attacked the concept of not working on Sunday, by observing that it should be flexible. However, flexibility doesn't stand a chance against change in the long term. People used to be shocked if you didn't go to church every sunday. Now, it's often "not cool" to be overly religious. That's a pretty radical change, considering it came mostly within the space of 50 years. To be honest, I'm completely stuck at this point. I hope I gave you something to think about. *Quote:* You know that the Romans were all homosexuals and guess what happened to them? The Roman Empire fell because of it. Christianity started from Catholicism, which was spread by the Roman empire. Hence, the "Roman Catholic" church. *Quote:* Funny isn't it that Socrates, who was a homosexual, married a female. Men at the time were more or less expected to marry and have children, to empower the army. While it's very possible he developed an emotional relationship with her, it was probably driven by the culture. It's very interesting to know that Socrates was gay, though. Official Keenbound Site Visit #dosgamers on irc.mircx.com! Edited by: Robo Blue at: 2/1/04 10:19 am
JosephBurke Tres-tria quindecim Posts: 261 (2/1/04 10:42 am) 68.106.139.158 Reply \| Edit \| Del	it lacks *Quote:* robo blue: To make a general observation Your post is ugly and that's a general observation. Skimming the words in your post, though not reading any more than that first phrase , I can see you're talking about Jesus and a new law and whatever else. Though, tell me, since your post is so 'ugly,' wouldn't that maybe be reminiscent of an incompetent speaker who won't be listened to and instead just laughed at. You can write better than that; you should write better than that; it is rude not to write better than that.
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1358 (2/1/04 11:45 am) 203.26.24.213 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: it lacks yeah Snailiy's right. Muslims can marry up to four women. But obviously, it's illegal and rare nowadays. I especially hate gays who act like females. Eeew!!! Like, that's totally wrong! Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
Xtraverse Stranded Fish Posts: 2728 (2/1/04 1:26 pm) 69.162.175.74 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: it lacks Women often say the best friends are gay males. Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you on experience -- Mark Twain spatang.com
Snaily Messie Posts: 966 (2/1/04 1:41 pm) 213.65.97.229 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: it lacks Did someone else see the obvious connection between a country allowing homosexuality and the immediate fall of the same country? Didn't think so. As a sidenote, I heard all great empires that have fallen this far in history has been known to eat vegetables. Stop eating them before the WW3 is here! ________ ¨@_
KeenRush Photachyon Transceiver Posts: 4969 (2/1/04 2:05 pm) 212.246.17.130 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: it lacks There were many many things that affected to the "fail" of Roman. One quite big was that the "limit" came, and they couldn't get more space. That cause they couldn't get more stuff to make them richer and so on.. "For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all that they could, they began to modify." 3001: The final Odyssey
Flaose The Vagrant Posts: 1389 (2/1/04 5:32 pm) 68.147.109.142 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: it lacks The Roman Empire probably fell due to wide-spread heavy-metal poisoning. *Quote:* Originally Posted by: Xtraverse Women often say the best friends are gay males. I've always figured that is because they feel completely unthreatened by them. A gay guy isn't going to come on to you, and he's not going to steal "that cute guy over there" either. Because of this, a woman is going to let down more mental barriers (intentionally put in place or not) and thus have a better relationship with that person. *Quote:* Originally Posted by: Robo Blue Jesus attacked the concept of not working on Sunday, by observing that it should be flexible. Well, seeing as how The Sabbath is Saturday, there's no reason anyone shouldn't be working on Sunday. But assuming you talking about people taking "Remember The Sabbath day, to keep it holy" to mean doing absolutely no work on The Sabbath (which Orthodox Jews still follow), I'm curious to which Bible passage(s) you are referring to. -------------------- Cerebral Cortex 314 - For All of your Commander Keen Needs. Eat at Joes
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1361 (2/1/04 9:24 pm) 203.26.24.213 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: it lacks Legalizing Homosexuality is the plot of Iraq! Now homosexuality will cause the fall of the UN! Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
Robo Blue Vorticon Elite Posts: 1046 (2/1/04 9:52 pm) 24.187.190.18 Reply \| Edit \| Del	sorry *Quote:* Well, seeing as how The Sabbath is Saturday, there's no reason anyone shouldn't be working on Sunday. But assuming you talking about people taking "Remember The Sabbath day, to keep it holy" to mean doing absolutely no work on The Sabbath (which Orthodox Jews still follow), I'm curious to which Bible passage(s) you are referring to. I was referring to John 7:23 and Matthew 12:10. In the second passage, Jesus heals someone on the sabbath, despite the law banning work. *Quote:* Your post is ugly and that's a general observation. That post WAS kind of disorganized (to put it mildly). And it DID have nothing directly to do with the topic. I really wasn't sure exactly where I was going with it, so I probably shouldn't have posted (I wasted like 20 mins banging it out, though). I felt that I had to say something, but didn't really have a good analogy, and kind of forgot what I was saying halfway though the post (which is why I stopped so abruptly). I hope I didn't waste too much of your time on that. Official Keenbound Site Visit #dosgamers on irc.mircx.com!
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1368 (2/1/04 9:55 pm) 203.26.24.218 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: sorry yes, that post was very ugly indeed. I really didn't want to bother reading it. Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
JosephBurke Tres-tria quindecim Posts: 262 (2/2/04 6:01 am) 68.106.139.158 Reply \| Edit \| Del	lol *Quote:* robo blue: I hope I didn't waste too much of your time on that. None,
CommanderSpleen Vortininja Posts: 177 (2/2/04 9:06 am) 203.220.175.214 Reply \| Edit \| Del	The World Of Duality. Is it just me or are the advertisements at the top trying to be as relevant as they possibly can? "Free Instant Ordination", "Islam", "Marriage Celebrant", "The Genesis Story" and "A Better Marriage?" Frankly, some of the rhetoric I've been reading around here is beginning to infuriate me. I've heard some good points, and I've heard some extreme exaggerations. Some of the exaggerations I have entertained, just to indicate their possible implications, but so far I'm unconvinced that they're really such a problem. There seem many who believe that homosexuals/homosexual marriages forsake the will of God or are against Nature. But I ask you, what of mental disabilities or emotional disorders that aren't necessarily the fault of the individual experiencing them? And the apparent unfairness of the world, making the rich richer and the poor poorer? These issues are as frequent as that of homosexuality, yet their existence is accepted for the most part by society, and we find ways around them. And haven't we been taught that we mustn't judge one another? A powerful state of mind can be produced from being impartial, accepting the good and the bad, the just and the injust, recognising that each are ultimately the same. God created a Universe of duality. The possibility for unending human compassion is as real as the possibility for unspeakable inhumane acts. Yet both are there to remind us of the existence of the other, so that we may choose the path we most wish to live. Now, it's entirely possible that all instances of alternate sexuality are created from some sort of deep-seated emotional disorder (or if we want to sidestep into metaphysics, an imbalance of male/female energy). If this is the case, then certainly there's a way to correct the disorder/energy imbalance and revert the subject to 'normal', whatever that is. It's also entirely possible that our entire society is based on a single misconception that there is not enough of anything in the Universe to go around all those that inhabit it. A few simple lessons in the Art of Prosperity Consciousness can present some useful practices that can make a change to this situation if used regularly. Then materialistic attitudes are against Nature, and not as God intented. For God created a Universe of abundance, and refusing to recognise this abundance is a refusal to recognise God's gifts to us all. But it's not. It's simply another state of existence that one can choose to experience, or not, of one's free decision. Though I understand much of existing peacefully between the lines of turmoil, I do not judge those who give in and become angered at the world for causing problems that just keep trying to hold them back from what they want to do. At least, I try not to. Sometimes I give in and become angered at others for refusing to acknowledge something that's right in front of their face. I could write a volume on such matters, and indeed I shall someday, but for now let the above suffice. >Commander Spleen ö Cave assectatorem Ductoris Alacris ö "Childhood provides a treasure house of creative memories... turn your attention to it. Raise up the sunken feelings of this enormous past... your personality will grow stronger... out of this immersion in your own world, healing comes. This adds new meaning to your life." - http://www.higher-self-improvement-pursuits.com/creative-memory.html JimSoft Lair http://jimsoftlair.tripod.com/
Snaily Messie Posts: 967 (2/2/04 7:44 pm) 213.65.97.229 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The World Of Duality. The Roman Empire fell for no single reason. I've always had a bit of a problem with that duality theory (believed in by Leibniz and Confucianism, to name a few) since it basically says "theres nothing you can do about it". If you prefer to live in "the best of all worlds" (quote from Leibniz, mutilated by Molière in Candide) then you free to do so, but I prefer a view of the world where I can change something for the better. ________ ¨@_
eK Isonian Posts: 1392 (2/2/04 11:38 pm) 143.109.90.166 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The World Of Duality. I thought it fell to the Mongol invasion?
ShadowIII Grunt Posts: 15 (2/3/04 6:21 am) 206.63.170.76 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The World Of Duality. *Quote:* Christianity started from Catholicism, which was spread by the Roman empire. Hence, the "Roman Catholic" church. What! Are you serious?
KeenRush Photachyon Transceiver Posts: 4985 (2/3/04 7:21 am) 212.246.17.130 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The World Of Duality. At some point at the end of Rome, the Christianity was the only allowed religion. "For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all that they could, they began to modify." 3001: The final Odyssey
Snaily Messie Posts: 969 (2/3/04 7:55 am) 213.65.97.229 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The World Of Duality. True. Although it didn't fall that fast - it was split into two; East Rome and West Rome. West Rome quickly shattered to the barbarians, but East Rome (with Constantinople as capital) was around many years. ________ ¨@_
Yowza Vortininja Posts: 208 (2/3/04 9:12 am) 220.244.237.164 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The World Of Duality. notices that no one has mention homosexuality at all on this page
KeenEmpire Keen's Empire Posts: 672 (2/3/04 11:49 am) 203.151.38.3 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The World Of Duality. *Quote:* Well, seeing as how The Sabbath is Saturday, there's no reason anyone shouldn't be working on Sunday. Wha? I'm confused.. *Quote:* Just remember that this is the year of the elite devil. 1337 + 666 = 2003
eK Isonian Posts: 1395 (2/3/04 1:47 pm) 143.109.90.166 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The World Of Duality. That was last year...
hinkle0 Grunt Posts: 32 (2/4/04 3:19 am) 24.107.160.82 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The World Of Duality. Warning: Long senseless post ahead. Skip at leisure. *Quote:* As an aside, if you agree with "alternative lifestyle" marriages, do you have anything against incestuous marriages? If not, what is your reasoning? Thinking about it, no, I really don't have anything against it. The only reasons it could be bad is that the current society looks at it oddly and that children brought forth from such unions (assuming them to be heterosexual, of course) are more often than not genetically defective. But then, it's also a radical idea of mine (ahead of technology, of course) that only mentally superior couples likely of producing a still more intelligent child should be allowed to have children. Perhaps this is some Hitler complex. I don't know. Nothing much I can do about it anyway. Reading more replies... It also seems that religion is a common argument against equal marriage for all. Yes, the Bible does condemn homosexuals in no uncertain terms. Yes, by distorting the words you can say God's only condemning certain aspects of it... But distortion is, by definition, not correct. However, if one also believes in the true spirit of America (since this petition is applying to America... believe me, I'd move to the Netherlands if I had the choice, and not only because they have gay marriage), then the government ought not base any of its laws on a religion. Even if you object to it on a personal religious level, don't you believe that as humans it is a right to be given to them? To further ramble, I actually don't even favor marriage as an institution. I agree with scrolls up Flaose: *Quote:* To ensure property rights, etc., they should simply issue a "Certificate of Committed Relationship" (or some other wordy name) to whomever should apply for it, make it equivalent to current "marriage rights", and get rid of "common-law rights" (as they will no longer be necessary). After that, let the people do as they wish. Marriage in my opinion ought to be kept a religious thing and not a governmental institution. But the certificates of committed relationship could serve the same purpose from the governmental standpoint. *Quote:* So here goes: after gay marriage is allowed, someone will realize that bigamy should also be legal. Sure. Why not? I personally don't think humans are capable of having a committed relationship with more than one other person. Humans just don't work like that. Same reason that Karl Marx's communism didn't quite work. Actually, it's more feasible that people will try to get child-adult marriages legalized before they go on to bigamy. This is another one that makes me squirm a little, just because children in general are not capable of making life-changing decisions intelligently. I mean, they want to grow up to be princesses (if they're female or very special) and astronauts (if they're male or somewhat creative). But at what age can you draw the line? It's entirely arbitrary. I've gone through several stages where I thought "okay, now I'm know what I'm doing... I don't think like a child anymore". Of course, like any other child I think that right now. Perhaps I'm right this time. I doubt it. *Quote:* A woman in Eastern United States was tired of trying to find a man, so she wanted to marry herself Odd. I can't even fathom her rationale... What benefit could that have? I find that interesting... Y'know, the only thing I miss about the old InsideTheWeb forums was the ability to have threaded replies... Sometimes they're nice. And reading more replies... Seems have of what I've said has already been said. Well then... *Quote:* Domestic partnership gives legal benefits. But not at all the same ones as an official "marriage" does. And in my dearly beloved United States, they are as far as I remember legal only in one state... Sadly, I'm sick enough that my brain is not working sufficiently well to remember which. *Quote:* That's pretty much the limit for my views on this subject. Apologies to everyone who has a thick layer of sarcasm dripping from their computer screens after reading all of my posts. I'll have to e-mail you all some Windex or something to clean it off. As much as your views conflict with mine, Ilsoap, you are awesome. Truly awesome. *Quote:* Same-sex marriages are just wrong, I can't believe that any of you guys think it should be legalized. What person in the right mind would like that? I'd like to think I'm in my right mind. I'm quite sure that eK is in his. *Quote:* You know that the Romans were all homosexuals and guess what happened to them? The Roman Empire fell because of it. The time to mention that would be when any other civilization has survived half as long as the Romans did... On a side note, I believe there was more homosexuality among the Greeks than the Romans. Also, the empire didn't fall because of homosexuality. It feel because it had larger borders and it didn't have enough army to defend them. Therefore when the "barbarians" invaded, the Romans were scattered too thinly to be of much help. *Quote:* It's very interesting to know that Socrates was gay, though. Also on a side note, think of Cassanova. The picture of manly heterosexuality, yes? No, not really. Gay pedophile. Or perhaps not... But he at least had a relationship of some sort with a male child. Interesting to know, yes? Other famous people... da Vinci's sexuality, while uncertain, certainly wasn't heterosexual. There are more, but I can't remember them. *Quote:* I especially hate gays who act like females. Eeew!!! Like, that's totally wrong! cough Valley girl. Like totally! *Quote:* Women often say the best friends are gay males. Oh of course. ^^ They also say that every cute guy (and they usually aren't just talking appearance) is either taken or gay. Slightly related, I realized recently that I have only one real-life male friend. Of course, there are less than twenty people I consider "friends". The ones I know and like reasonably well are acquaintances. The ones I know but don't care much about are people. And the rest are just marks. A thoroughly despicable view, but then I'm commonly told (most often by myself) that I'm a thoroughly despicable person. On an even less related note, I was one of five people giving a presentation just this afternoon... I don't consider myself at all a good speaker (quite the opposite), but apparently my flamboyant nature won the audience over. I was the only person to receive applause, and heaven knows my material wasn't any better than the other groups'. *Quote:* Legalizing Homosexuality is the plot of Iraq! Please tell me you're not serious? Also, please forgive me for a slight recession of reason, but the only reason we were in Iraq is because Bush's daddy never had time to finish what he was up to in Desert Storm. Okay, reason (hopefully) reinstated. *Quote:* And the apparent unfairness of the world, making the rich richer and the poor poorer? Ah, the joys of republicanhood... I only agree with them in the sense of "give me everything I want; screw everyone else" sense. And that's enough to make me consider myself a republican. Reading some more replies... Commander Spleen's replies are all very intelligent. I am terribly sorry to have wasted your time with this senseless post that made just about no points of its own... I should be very much obliged if you'll forgive its various oddities, and also if you'd point out any totally nonsensical logical leaps. edit: removed some nonoperational ezCode eK edit: just fixed the <i>girl</i> part, I was bored, hehe Edited by: eK at: 2/6/04 11:40 pm
Robo Blue Vorticon Elite Posts: 1049 (2/4/04 4:12 am) 24.187.190.18 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: The World Of Duality. *Quote:* I am terribly sorry to have wasted your time with this senseless post that made just about no points of its own... I should be very much obliged if you'll forgive its various oddities, and also if you'd point out any totally nonsensical logical leaps. Not at all, Hinkle. That post was very enjoyable. If anything, it summarized the last 5 pages of discussion under a new perspective. Official Keenbound Site Visit #dosgamers on irc.mircx.com!
Yowza Vortininja Posts: 210 (2/4/04 11:29 am) 220.244.236.192 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: This is getting interesting... *Quote:* See, apparently there's this guy who has a pet dog. This dog is his only companion, and he really loves his dog. I mean REALLY loves him. And his dog... well, he's a dog, of course he really loves his master. So he applies for a marriage license, but isn't allowed one. He takes it to court, and after several years convinces the court (and the general public), that indeed, he was born that way. He just likes animals THAT much. So, he's allowed to be married to his dog. (Don't believe me that this is possible? Look up beastiality sometime.) http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8584109%5E13762,00.html
Robo Blue Vorticon Elite Posts: 1050 (2/5/04 10:07 pm) 24.187.190.18 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: This is getting interesting... That sounds pretty unusual (by our standards anyway), but it does bring up the important fact that some other cultures have traditions that, while they clash with christian beliefs, are not entirely meant to be sinful. This kind of goes with what Hinkle was saying, since I don't feel that I have any right to judge other cultures, or any proper reason to offer oppression. As long as there's no human sacrifice involved, it's not hurting anyone. Official Keenbound Site Visit #dosgamers on irc.mircx.com!
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1373 (2/6/04 7:10 am) 203.26.24.213 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: This is getting interesting... *Quote:* Please tell me you're not serious? Also, please forgive me for a slight recession of reason, but the only reason we were in Iraq is because Bush's daddy never had time to finish what he was up to in Desert Storm. Okay, reason (hopefully) reinstated. All I know is that George Bush {Insert Number Here} wanted to finish the work of his daddy from the Gulf War. Nothing more. I could be wrong. But that's all that I know. *Quote:* That post was very enjoyable. If anything, it summarized the last 5 pages of discussion under a new perspective. Agreed! I've set up my ezboard account to show a ridiculous amount of posts per page (possibly 1000-10000 or even 999999...). So it's very convenient in my opinion. Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
KeenRush Photachyon Transceiver Posts: 5003 (2/6/04 4:22 pm) 212.246.17.130 Reply \| Edit \| Del	.. "As long as there's no human sacrifice involved, it's not hurting anyone." Well, doesn't sacrificing an animal hurt it? Anyways, and if it's depending on culture, how one can say human sacrifice is wrong? If you have scientific outlook on things, why would you (I don't mean anybody) thing that is wrong; isn't human just a bit more "advanced" species and animal, and worth of nothing? (I say it's wrong, mainly because of the Bible.) "For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all that they could, they began to modify." 3001: The final Odyssey Edited by: KeenRush at: 2/6/04 4:23 pm
Xtraverse Stranded Fish Posts: 2737 (2/6/04 8:49 pm) 69.162.175.74 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: .. Morals KeenRush, morals. I don't believe humans should be made to be above everything else. I'm completely against inhumane treatment of chimpanzees, as they are very smart beings as well. I'm not really sure where to draw the line though. Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you on experience -- Mark Twain spatang.com
hinkle0 Grunt Posts: 34 (2/6/04 9:34 pm) 24.107.160.82 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: .. Morals... The bane of theists and atheists alike. Theists get fussed at if they ever stray from theirs. And everyone assumes the atheists don't have them. Human sacrifice (whether sacrifice to something or simple murder) and slavery (whether bondage or simple oppression) are what I deem the ultimate crimes against humans. As for drawing the animal line... I make special rules for humans simply because I am one, and I'm selfish. I wouldn't hurt a chimpanzee, even... Actually, the only animals I will hurt are those that have a decent prospect of hurting me. Wasps, bees, hornets, yellow jackets, and such? I hope they die... Mosquitoes I don't care. I'll just blow them off.
baabis Gannalech Posts: 204 (2/6/04 11:21 pm) 62.78.172.152 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: .. Going slightly out of topic, I'd like to state the single point in all religions that bugs me most. Morals and Values. All religions have pre-defined and ready-for-consupmtion morals and values that are easy to accept and follow. Now there's nothing wrong with that itself, but the thing is, that this removes the need for, and sometimes even the possibility for thinking about these morals. Thinking about morals and establishing your own is vital, because if you don't thoroughly understand the morals you follow, you will easily become astray from them, which in the end causes harm for others. Now you can say that morals are completely subjective, but there are some points that everyone will follow. By everyone I mean people who have actually pondered and tested their morals without bias. First of all, the survival of species, and to a slightly lesser extent, survival of individual lifeforms. Life's purpose has always been and always will be to create and continue life. A natural balance formed by evolution has been established amongst non-intelligent species. Here comes the part where it all goes wrong. Humans. Humans are intelligent enough to think about morals. If all went in the natural way, all humans' morals would be ultimately pro-survival-of-life. Then there's this thing called religion that provides easy morals for lazy people, and this is where it goes wrong. I'm not saying that the actual morals religions provide are necessarily bad, just the point that people don't need to think about them. Now, I can't prove any of this, so if you want to argue any of it, please do so. I want to improve my views. The board is a mirror of the mind of the players as the moments pass. When a master studies the record of a game he can tell at what point greed overtook the pupil, when he became tired, when he fell into stupidity, and when the maid came by with tea. Edited by: baabis at: 2/6/04 11:27 pm
eK Isonian Posts: 1402 (2/6/04 11:38 pm) 143.109.90.166 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: .. Just some important clarifications: Stop calling it bigamy, it's polygamy - or, polyandry and polygyny. Not bigamy -- bigamy is the legal term for the breaking of anti-polygamy laws. Polygamy is marraige with multiple spouses, and it's most common form is polygyny (one man, many wives). Polyandry is only practiced in a small part of Tibet. There, now that that's out of the way Just a little point that should be made, *Quote:* But then, it's also a radical idea of mine (ahead of technology, of course) that only mentally superior couples likely of producing a still more intelligent child should be allowed to have children. Perhaps this is some Hitler complex. I don't know. Nothing much I can do about it anyway. Who decides who's 'metally superior'? As much as it would be nice to force eugenics on the world, we want to live in a happy place more than a superior one.
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1382 (2/7/04 3:39 am) 203.26.24.213 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: .. *Quote:* I don't believe humans should be made to be above everything else. I'm completely against inhumane treatment Same. I feel horrible for what us humans do to those poor souls. We destroy their habitats to create homes and Commander Keen boxes to store our disks in etc. *Quote:* Actually, the only animals I will hurt are those that have a decent prospect of hurting me. Wasps, bees, hornets, yellow jackets, and such? I hope they die... Mosquitoes I don't care. I'll just blow them off. Nah, all insects can die IMO. Except bees. They're practically harmless unless you harm them. Also, they provide us with sweet sweet honey... {gargle} Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
Xtraverse Stranded Fish Posts: 2738 (2/7/04 4:43 pm) 69.162.175.74 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: .. Unfleex, I'm talking about a hell of a lot more than destroying habitat. Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you on experience -- Mark Twain spatang.com
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1394 (2/8/04 2:55 am) 203.26.24.213 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: .. *Quote:* I'm talking about a hell of a lot more than destroying habitat. I know that. Like animals being used to try cosmetics, being kept in labs for cruel experiments, Being taken away from natural habitat and being caved up in a cage in the dark for the rest of it's life. etc. It's really sad & cruel. Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
KeenRush Photachyon Transceiver Posts: 5018 (2/8/04 7:54 am) 212.246.17.130 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: .. Honey & Commander Keen boxes.. Hmmm, where was I? Oh.. Yeah, I know morals and etc., but I just thought those who believe science all way and so on, wouldn't even think they have those - or at least try to avoid all those as much as possible. Or probably thinking those are just some stuff in brains that can easily be changed in the future, so can will, and everything else.. I can't even understand how persons who don't believe anything or stuff like that, want even to live? If it's all pointless and there's nothing after, I would kill myself, you die sooner or later. Or is it some thing in brains after thousands of years that tells you to survive? Yeah, and that lab animal thing is cruel. And not to mention, their home forests are cut down and replaced by new supermarket.. "For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all that they could, they began to modify." 3001: The final Odyssey
KeenEmpire Keen's Empire Posts: 674 (2/8/04 11:07 am) 203.151.38.3 Reply \| Edit \| Del	dsf *Quote:* If it's all pointless and there's nothing after, I would kill myself, you die sooner or later. Oh, would you..
KeenRush Photachyon Transceiver Posts: 5022 (2/8/04 1:34 pm) 212.246.17.130 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: dsf Yes, if there wouldn't be God or stuff like that. At least I hope I would do that. "For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all that they could, they began to modify." 3001: The final Odyssey
KeenEmpire Keen's Empire Posts: 676 (2/8/04 3:13 pm) 203.151.38.3 Reply \| Edit \| Del	fsdlkj Oh that's nice..
Xtraverse Stranded Fish Posts: 2741 (2/8/04 5:56 pm) 69.162.175.74 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: fsdlkj You really think scientists are thoughtless people KeenRush don't you? Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you on experience -- Mark Twain spatang.com Edited by: Xtraverse at: 2/8/04 5:56 pm
KeenRush Photachyon Transceiver Posts: 5023 (2/8/04 6:02 pm) 212.246.17.130 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: fsdlkj Well, quite something like that, including people who believe only science. I can't understand why they even want to live or exist if everything is pointless. And why they do and say they try to have fun, shouldn't they just think what would be the best way to investigate new stuff, what is the smartest thing to do and avoid feelings? "For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all that they could, they began to modify." 3001: The final Odyssey
Keeniver Vortininja Posts: 39 (2/8/04 6:16 pm) 207.179.107.90 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: fsdlkj Well, I don't know for sure, but if I thought there wasn't anything to go to after death, I would try to keep myself alive as long as possible. It doesn't make sense to me to try to utterly destroy yourself just because when you die in the long run you'll be utterly destroyed... ah, never mind. Nobody can truly know that. But to be back on the original topic, more or less. I think people should be allowed to do what they want, basically, so long as it doesn't hurt anybody else. And I don't see how allowing gay marriages is hurting anybody. Though obviously some people seem to think it is, or at least that it's wrong. But why? Many good points have been made, though I don't agree with a lot of them. And why should it follow that if people accept gay marraiges, they'd eventually accept all those other things? I don't think it does. I don't know much about the Romans, or the Greeks, but it seems highly illogical that homosexuality could be the downfall of an empire. How could that happen? I don't think it could. But as I said, many good points have been made. There's really not much more to say. Argueing about it likely will not change people's viewpoints. I'm not sure if that made any sense, but either way, I think that's enough said by me
hinkle0 Grunt Posts: 35 (2/8/04 6:36 pm) 24.107.160.82 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: fsdlkj *Quote:* Who decides who's 'metally superior'? As much as it would be nice to force eugenics on the world, we want to live in a happy place more than a superior one. Like communism - it's great in theory, but, as you pointed out, there's no possibility of it ever working. If it were possible to quantize intelligence, though... shrug
eK Isonian Posts: 1411 (2/8/04 11:46 pm) 143.109.90.166 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: fsdlkj there's far more than just simple computing power that goes into intelligence, there are too many factors, you can't find any single one that's important, or more important. In such a scenario, I'd fear, first of all, a loss of genetic diversity - and with it, a loss of less common talents.
Xtraverse Stranded Fish Posts: 2747 (2/10/04 9:44 pm) 69.162.175.74 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: fsdlkj http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/07/arts/07GAY.html?ei=5062&en=3a6bba0d3feab09a&ex=1076734800&partner=GOOGLE&pagewanted=print&position= Something I thought was interesting. Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you on experience -- Mark Twain spatang.com
eK Isonian Posts: 1414 (2/10/04 11:52 pm) 143.109.90.166 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: fsdlkj good read sorta continues from where I left off (and in much greater depth) The guy at the end was funny - he thinks they're trying to say homosexuality is desirable - what they're trying to do is make it accepted as part of life, not shunned.
JosephBurke Tres-tria quindecim Posts: 278 (2/11/04 11:26 pm) 68.106.139.158 Reply \| Edit \| Del	read I read a little of the document, well thought out.
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1412 (2/13/04 6:50 am) 203.26.24.216 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: read *Quote:* I would kill myself, you die sooner or later. Well that's IF God didn't exist right? Besides, Death is scary and gruesome. {Shudders} A freaky thing happened to me this morning (blackest friday i've ever had). But It's pretty stupid. And I've shuddered so hard! Family, Religion, Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business! - Charles Montgomery Burns
LevelLord00 Grunt Posts: 9 (2/22/04 12:41 am) 219.88.57.103 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Suicide Isn't it odd that some people will fight to the death just to prove that their existence is pointless? Thank God not all scientists are as thoughtless as Pol Pot. His reasoning was: "All life is equal, there is no god, good and evil are subjective. Ergo, mowing the lawn is as bad as massacreing a village, and who the hell says it's bad? It's just different." "Darwin survives, Jesus saves, but only Buddha pays dividends" R. Kilroy
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 Vorticon Elite Posts: 1480 (2/22/04 1:40 am) 203.26.24.217 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: Suicide *Quote:* Isn't it odd that some people will fight to the death just to prove that their existence is pointless? Now that's what I call a fight without a cause! > Hello Kiddies! I'm Silly the Ghost!
JosephBurke Tres-tria quindecim Posts: 294 (2/22/04 7:39 am) 68.106.139.158 Reply \| Edit \| Del	You say potato, I say potäto. Let's call the whole thing off Lol.
KeenRush Photachyon Transceiver Posts: 5100 (2/22/04 9:15 am) 81.209.126.233 Reply \| Edit \| Del	.... "Well that's IF God didn't exist right?" Yes, and that was I said - at least tried to.. You should read my replies more carefully.. By the way, what happened to you UnFleex on Friday? "For years they studied, collected, catalogued. When they had learned all that they could, they began to modify." 3001: The final Odyssey
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 aka Silly the Ghost Posts: 1498 (2/27/04 8:50 am) 203.26.24.211 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: .... oh... i was on the van to school; i was sitting at the front seat at the back of the van. and there was a big spider on the door. i was the oldest male on the van and everybody was staring at me and relying on me to rescue them from the spider! but i'm arachophobic; well, i'm scared of all creepy crawlies. when the van stopped, we had to get off. but nobody would dare. the bus driver left the van and went towards the canteen to get a broom. she stuck it through the window, stabbed it and tossed the broom to the front of the van; two kids were so terrified, they jumped to the front of the van and ran off. finally, two of it's legs were still on the door and i opened it. the two legs fell and i was so freaked that i almost fell backwards. i grabbed my bag and jumped off walking as fast as I can with a grin on my face. > Hello Kiddies! I'm Silly the Ghost!
LevelLord00 Vortininja Posts: 55 (2/27/04 10:17 am) 210.86.45.247 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: .... I know how you feel I was (and still kinda am) melissaphobic. I had the misfortune of having a beehive outside my house once and I underwent a simalar experience. "No one should be here" -Level Lord
0 UNFLEEXABLE 0 aka Silly the Ghost Posts: 1507 (2/28/04 1:16 am) 203.26.24.217 Reply \| Edit \| Del	Re: .... about two or three weeks ago, i had a dream that i was in a creepy (old) house with webs everywhere! i saw a web in the house the size of a hammock! and there were these giant spiders everywhere! no i did not watch 8 legged freaks or anything like that. > Hello Kiddies! I'm Silly the Ghost!

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